What to Do After a Disappointing Race: Should You Chase Redemption?

You gave months of your life to a race—but the day you imagined never happened. Now you are left deciding what the result means, what went wrong, and whether another race will bring redemption or deepen the disappointment.

In this episode, Coach Justin and Coach Katie share their own difficult race experiences and explain how to process a disappointing performance before making your next decision. Because the healthiest response is not always another registration—it is understanding whether you still want the training process or simply want a different result.

What You’ll Learn

• How to separate a disappointing result from your identity and ability as an athlete
• Why illness, missed training, and panic training can turn one setback into a larger problem
• How to tell whether a redemption race is driven by genuine motivation or the need to prove yourself
• Why returning to the process—not chasing validation—creates greater enjoyment and longevity in endurance sports

Timestamps

0:00 – What to Do After a Disappointing Race
2:21 – Katie’s Experience at Grandma’s Marathon
5:17 – Justin’s Difficult Return at IRONMAN Florida 70.3
9:14 – The Emotional Recovery After a Race
14:11 – Wanting Another Race vs. Wanting Another Result
20:13 – When Outcome Pressure Ruins the Process
23:39 – Panic Training After Illness or Missed Workouts
28:43 – Why Athletes Struggle to Coach Themselves
38:10 – How Difficult Races Can Make Better Coaches
47:37 – Why Finishing Times Never Tell the Whole Story
1:09:51 – Shifting From Outcome Goals to the Training Process
1:15:50 – Should You Sign Up for a Redemption Race?

For coaching inquiries:

Coach Katie → https://fuel2run.com

Coach Justin → https://tabularasaracing.com

Podcast Email → theenduranceathletejourney@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Welcome everyone to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. I'm your host, Coach Justin. I'm here with Coach Katie. And today's episode is 110. And we are coming to you today from a little bit of a coach's corner perspective. It's been a while since we've done one of these episodes. And so we wanted to uh dial it back and maybe get a little bit more vulnerable, a little personal this time, and and bring to you this idea of what to do after a disappointing race or event. Um, it may not be that your expectations didn't get met, because you can I I've still I've talked with athletes where they've had a quote unquote disappointing event where it was a PR. And so, you know, it just didn't materialize the way that they envisioned it would, like the the movie that played in their mind on how the day would go. And so sometimes you have to separate those expectations from performance. But regardless of what the source is for this so-called disappointment, um, what do you do next? You know, how do you how do you recover from that? Well, how do you bounce back? What should you start to consider? Uh I've had many, many conversations with athletes on the revenge race. You know, I'm looking, I'm seeking redemption, and so I want to go back and and give it another shot at a different course. I've done it myself, so I I understand the mindset behind it. I still have races that are on my on my redemption list to do, and they're still there. So um, we wanted to to talk to you today because if you've done this long enough, you're going to have one of these races that happen. So whether heaven forbid it's like a DNF or a DNS where you just did not even start, you know, heaven forbid it's one of those, but there's there's going to come a time where uh your expectations aren't met, or you felt that the performance that you got out of your event was not consistent with your true potential. So how how do you recover from that? How do you how do you look deeper inside? How do you analyze it? And so let's kick this thing off. So Katie, this is kind of the the brainchild of of Katie. So Katie came up with this topic. So I'm gonna let her kind of take over a little bit more and uh Katie kind of talk us through uh this introduction.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Well, I'll explain what I I mean I've if people were listening to my road to grandmas, they they would understand my recap of the race. I you know, and I I don't I wouldn't call it like I wouldn't say I was necessarily disappointed in the fact that I was like devastated or something, where I'm like this uh, you know, I was actually just the way it unfolded and how I just had hung on in the end and finished, and actually finishing in that day was just gonna be the hardest part of the whole thing is just trying to get to the finish line. And I'm very proud of myself for that because there were several times along the way that I thought about not finishing. And most of I've had thoughts like that that are very just because I'm just uncomfortable or I have those moments, and there was like maybe the last eight miles of that race the entire time I was thinking about it, just about so it was different in that way, and just finishing and getting the medal and the shirt was a big deal to me. But I am disappointed in you know that it wasn't what I set out to accomplish. So there's I guess some I don't know if I would call it like disappointment or just like, okay, this didn't go the way I thought. So I was that's kind of what was was a reason I wanted to talk today about that or or bring it up because I think almost every endurance athlete has experienced it and l unless you're like a brand new athlete, maybe when you know you haven't had unfortunate and unfortunately it probably happen will happen too the longer you're in in um you know racing. But even a light elite, we marathoners even, you know, you see that where sometimes they don't finish or they have a disappointing race. I mean it happens Olympians, you know, even when the last time I watched um for the last Olympics, the marathon to qualify, you know, the women's marathon to qualify for the event, there were people I was disappointed, you know, that they didn't get the top three spots to make it. So, you know, that sort of there's always, you know, for every athlete, there's some level of disappointment. And so I was thinking this would be a good topic to kind of talk about, you know, how we process it, what sort of sort of what's what are some things you might want to consider afterwards? And should we even sign up? What is it even a good idea to sign up for a revenge race? Or is that maybe setting yourself up for more disappointment? You know, what's uh what are our thoughts around that? And then kind of I'm also happy to kind of explain where I'm at and kind of how I've processed the race and what I'm doing now. So uh kind of that that personal piece of it. Um, but that's kind of what the you know what the um inspiration I suppose for this was. It was my own personal experience lately, recently. So yeah, I mean when was your like what what I'm curious? Can you Justin, you remember like when was your last disappointing, right? Where you were truly disappointed?

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Is it I mean, uh yeah, I mean I can tell you the most recent one was was Florida 70.3. I mean uh so both of us have had these episodes in in the podcast. So if you go back and you check out Katie's uh Road to Grandma's race recap, which I'm scrolling through uh my handy dandy uh spreadsheet. So that's episode 104. So if you go back and and check that out, uh you can also go back and listen to my race debrief for Iron Man Florida 70.3, which was episode 53. Um so you can kind of I th I think kind of both of those episodes really uh tie into this topic pretty well uh because I think both of us had our expectations not met.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

I mean another like one and hopefully our like another uh series of these race topics or race um leadups, and um hopefully it'll go better because we both have hopefully it's gotta eventually like call fall into place, but I hope so.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

I mean I mean for mine w with Florida uh things were going really, really well until like three weeks before the race, and I came down with that post-tibial tendonitis and I was on crutches all the way up and effectively until the day before the race. I mean, I still couldn't walk through the expo the day before um very well. So, you know, it's just after, you know, during that race, that race really broke me uh to the point where it's just like I just I said, I don't I don't know if I have this in me. And I've been doing this for a long time, and I've gotten through some really hard races, but that one had me had me crying, you know, out out on the course, where it's just like I I don't know, I I can't do this. So, you know, I did I spent a lot of time praying in on that on that half marathon, and I was like, I I can't I can't do this. Uh the only way that I'm gonna cross through this finish line is if God allows me to do this and you know basically carries me across this line because I was in so much pain. And uh I I'll I'll I would also say, you know, was it uh I remember in North Carolina 70.3. It was my last 70.3 before uh the Florida one, and it was right before I took four years off of the sport to repair some some uh damage that's been done. You know, I had a torn rotator cuff, torn bicep tendon, uh pretty bad tendon ice in my elbow, so it affected my swimming. And that's that's one of that's my redemption race, and that's what I'm working really, really hard for right now to try and get back to. But Florida was just an opportunity that I couldn't pass up. It was a free race that was offered to me from Iron Man, and I I had no plans on racing it, and I was like, well, this is I guess this is what I'm doing. And I I I can say that I spent I spent probably a couple days mentally walking through that race to try and figure out what I was what I wanted to do next. Um, I I do know that this sport is kind of in my blood where it's just it's it's a major piece of me. And so I I still have goals of getting back to long course traton where I I want to do another full Iron Man, and I'm not ready to give that up yet. But I'll say, you know, maybe the day of the race, like race day or maybe the day after, uh, I I didn't want to do that anymore. So I had changed my mind. I was like, I don't want to do a full, I don't even want to do a half, and I regret signing up for the sprinting Olympic that I've already signed up for next year. And uh, but those races uh I trained well and recovered well from from Florida and made the podium to both of the races that I regretted signing up for. So I've had a successful year so far. And uh sometimes it just takes it just takes time, you know, to kind of walk through that process. And so if you go back, and uh I also want to to bring people's attention. It was the first coach's corner episode that we did. Um, and so it's episode 12, way back in the library. It talks about the physical, mental, and emotional recovery post-race. And I we talked about there was a there was a part of that discussion where we talked about the grieving process, and you get the the Iron Man blues or whatever. You basically you can I think it's relevant for the marathon as well. There's a grieving process that we have to go through for the end of the process that we went to get to race day. So race day is just one day, but we spend months preparing for that one day, and then the day after the race, you're left with uh just the memory of of how things went, whether those are good memories, whether they're bad memories. And so I believe that there is a true grieving process that has to take place um post-race that you that you need time to to process that.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Even if it's a good race, I think there's like a even if it's a good one, yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

You I think you still need that time.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

There might be a little bit more to process potentially in like a difficult race, but either way, um, there is that little bit of okay, well, now I've done this, like now what? And you know, kind of grieving. I mean, I think there's that, but it's kind of a mixed emotion too, because for the marathon after this marathon, I was relieved to be honest. I was like, all right, like that's you know, this was hard. I struggled a little more in this whole buildup because um, I think really because of the illness I got, it just seemed especially towards the end of the last eight weeks, I just had so many struggles just trying to get back to where I was that I was almost just had a sense of real like relief that it was over, you know, that I it was like I did it. I've had more of a grieving process before with other races. This particular one, I think I was just like, I'm I'm ready to be, you know, I need a break from this. So I was very ready and I was it was very nice to have some distractions and being with family and be traveling and stuff because I didn't even honestly have any desire or think about really wanting to go for a run for like that entire week, which is a good sign that I was ready to be done, you know. So I think it depends. Like I think how much you are in that process of grieving really depends a little bit on you know how hard how hard the whole process was and how ready you were to be just needing a break. I agree. I don't know, I like that you really grieved.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Yeah, I like that you brought up I like that you brought up the idea that um when you said even the week after the race, I had no desire to run. Um I I think that as endurance athletes and a-type personality people, that is something that you have to listen to. Um I've I've talked with a whole bunch of different athletes where they come to me and they said, uh, I had a race, but I'm finding it hard to get my motivation back to start training again. Um not not necessarily just to race, but just to have to implement some kind of structure and and to start training again. I think that that is those are valuable signals, I think, that the mind and the body are sending you that you have to listen to. Um I I know that I finished races where three days later I was chomping at the bit to start to start training again. And I think that that that's that's valuable. Now, people are gonna say, well, you need time to recover, because that that happened to have been, I think it was I think that was Iron Man Louisville, where I was like three days post post-race, and I was like, okay, coach, I'm ready to I'm ready to kick things off again. And he put me on a trainer with some threshold intervals, and I said a lot of bad things about him during during that session. I wasn't re I wasn't I wasn't physically ready for it, but I was mentally prepared and ready to jump back in into training.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

That's how I was after my New York City marathon. Because I did jump right back into another marathon, but in that instance, it was like, and I wasn't even disappointed with that race. I was I just was like, I s I I I'm still excited. There was almost like a grieving thought of not training anymore, the thought of not having that process. So I wouldn't have I was so into the process of training for New York City, the thought of stopping, I wasn't ready. That's like that grief you're talking about, that like not wanting to be done. That happened in that race. But I was able to build that like still being hungry into an into another build for a marathon six weeks later. Arguably that would maybe isn't smart, you know, to do that. But um, you know, and then I ended up getting the stomach bugs. So maybe it wasn't as had I not gotten that bill, I think I would have been ready. Like I was it would have been a pretty good race, I think. Um you know, it's just like but I was ready. You know, this time it was very different. The thought of even signing up for another marathon was um not appealing. I'm like, I'm not doing this again for a while. Like it I need a a break. And so listening to that and I mean it's a thing though, like I processed through a lot of thoughts, and I think it's like you have to kind of really be in tune because that sort of revenge race, maybe I'm gonna share a little bit more about that. But it's like sometimes I think you can use if you're if you're feeling what you're saying, like you're chomping at the bit to get back to training, you're truly like really disappointed you don't get to continue with the process. Like you're actually truly like grieving it. Like you I'm like three days in after the race and you're like ready to go again, and you're like, I just want to continue. I've just been enjoying this so much. Like maybe you can do that, but you know, really listening, because I think even when I was in my post-grandma's marathon, I did have thoughts like that. Like, what if I just sign up again for something in the fall? I can like prove that I, you know, I could I could do this again and like prove that I was capable of this. And so I think it's like differentiating sometimes between just those thoughts coming on because you're angry about a little bit angry about how it went because uh in maybe that disappointment and being like, I'm gonna like sign up because I'm gonna prove that I can do it, but you're not truly into it. And yeah, and then because you're also having there's this other conflicting thing that was happening with me was I truly was like not wanting to run, you know, I was like not even missing it. And even three weeks in, I supp I mean now I'm maybe four weeks out, something like that, maybe more. I don't know. It's like I'm finally ready, kind of ready to start actually training again. Like I've been kind of running and stuff, but this is this is where I'm like, okay, I'm kind of ready to start another training cycle of some sort for so it may not be a marathon, but um you just have to there's sometimes lots of emotions and lots of things you're processing through and trying to really decipher, like I wanna do like, you know, if you have that urge to sign up for something because you're angry or you're whatever, and it's you're truly not feeling like ready though, like to really listen because you can maybe uh you know, I've known plenty I've known plenty of people or I've maybe kind of experienced this a little bit where I've signed up for something because I am angry and want a different result, but I haven't actually thought about the fact that I have to get back at it.

unknown 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

And maybe I'm not ready to do that, you know. I just want the outcome, but I like maybe I'm not ready for the process.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

So anyway, just No, I like that you brought I like that you the the way that you described it because on on one hand you said, um I'm signing up for another race because I want to prove that I'm capable, versus I'm signing up for a race because I'm grieving the process. I think that's that's the distinction.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

But you're bringing the process and you're truly like ready to get back.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

And you and you and you're ready to get back and you want the process.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Like you're like, I just loved this. I was so happy, I was so content in the process, and I'm missing this, and you're ready. You're like just looking at your shoes, and you're like, gosh, I just want to get back out there, you know, I'm ready to go, versus I'm angry that didn't go well. I'm disappointed. I'm gonna sign up for something, something in you know, the whatever, the fall or you know, whatever six months from you now to like prove or whatever, six weeks, whatever it is like to prove that I can do it, but you're not, but your desire to go out there and put your shoes on and run is not very like you're like, Oh, I just really don't want to go though. Like I'm I need more of a break. Then it's probably I would listen to that uh what your body's actually telling you versus what your mind is trying to convince you. You sometimes is tuning in with your body a little more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah. The best way that I can describe it is it's more of like a heart posture kind of thing. Where it's just, I mean, if if you're just if you're signing up for another race just to prove that you can do it or you you didn't like the outcome that you got, there's nothing that says that this race that you've now signed up for as this as your quote unquote redemption race is going to give you the opportunity to prove the fitness that you have. Because there's so many things that are like outside of our control on race day. So if you're chasing performance or you're chasing proof that you're capable of achieving something, I think that sets people up more for dis for just more disappointment because rarely does that second race live up to the expectations that you have when you clicked on that registration button to chase something that you think that you're capable of achieving. Now, the athletes that I've worked with have seen more success where they've where they've had a race, it may not have gone like they wanted it to, or there's things that didn't go well, but there are things that did go well, and they they're kind of disappointed, and they sign up for another race simply because they want to continue the process and and they're not chasing performance, but they're chasing the uh the evolution of themselves as an athlete. They tend to have more success than those who chase proof, validation, or or revenge, or just being able to observe their athletic potential. I think that that first group tends to have more success and they're in the sport longer than those in the second. That's been my experience.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah. And I think kind of looking back with the marathon, I think when I did sign up for like that Tucson after New York City, it I didn't want the goal, but I was truly excited to get back to the process.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah, that's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Yeah, whereas and then I think in Vermont training for that, I was still enjoying the process. I think where things broke down for me a little bit with grandmas was after I got sick, I was so worried about the outcome and what the illness had done to my fitness. I was like obsessive obsessive about that, and um, it started to become like not so fun for me anymore. Like because I was so almost upset and disappointed with the fact that that had happened and it it truly did impact me. And I kind of like maybe should have pivoted, I think. And this is something I talk about in my recap of like there were so many signs of like this is just you just need to give your body more time. And I was pushing through workouts and doing things when I should have just been like listening, and then realizing a couple weeks in after even trying starting to try to run again that it wasn't gonna bounce back. Like my body was still like just it really taken me down. And I think that sometimes we sometimes get those illnesses and it just I just wasn't bouncing back like I was hoping. And at that point, to be like, okay, I want to still enjoy this. And so maybe that PR goal is out of the window. Because I think if that had happened and I'd reset my goal, I would have been able to go into grandma's and be like, I have a different goal than I wouldn't maybe would have not gone out so fast, and maybe it would have been a slower the same time, maybe, maybe a little faster because I would have paced it better and I would have maybe enjoyed it or it would have been a little bit less um of a grind and and so painful at the end. And so, you know, I think um that's when it that's when I stopped enjoying the process, I think, and I was just just trying to grind myself back into shape and it wasn't fun anymore. And so I think that's sometimes, you know, and realizing that now. And being like, okay, this is why I'm taking such a break from the marathon. Because I do think if it's all outcome oriented and you're just pushing yourself to do something because you want to achieve something and you're no longer enjoying the day-to-day process of it and the trading that goes into it, I d I don't think you're gonna be able to have longevity in this sport because you're just gonna burn out. Like I basically burnt myself out because I'm and I've experiencing the aftermath of that burnout, uh, you know, not wanting to run and then trying to get back into running when I got back. And of course it's hot, so that makes it hard too, because you don't enjoy running in the heat. But it's like I'm not, I'm just now kind of like, okay, I kind of am ready to start, you know, I'm not pushing myself just to go out and do a little bit of running because I know I need to stay fit. Now I'm like, okay, I'm kind of engaging into it again. But like I said, it's a month out. So I really had some major burnout, I think, from that process. The, you know, the process, the last eight or nine weeks is kind of my vulnerability. But I do think that's where when you start to lose interest in the process, whether it, you know, even during the marathon bill, I think that, you know, sometimes just kind of listening to that and figuring out how to revamp your goal or revamp your training a little bit to re-engage or whatever it is. But um, because I think when you have that disappointing race, you know, afterwards, you know, you might you might kind of experience a little bit of that um burnout. And then some people I think if especially if they're newer, maybe wouldn't want to go back to it at all, you know, like, oh, well, that's that wasn't fun. I don't want to do this anymore, you know, and then they don't stay with it. So I think you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Um I one thing that I did want to to bring up is well and ask you a question. Um after after you got sick and and you had recovered from the flu, do you feel that there was a bit of panic training that was taking place to where you were you were you were so committed to the outcome and the the sickness was definitely a setback. Do you feel that you were too committed to the outcome that actually caused you to kind of go into like this panic training mode? And ultimately, did you do you think that that affected your race? Or at least the execution of your race?

SPEAKER_02 24:21

I think so. I think I missed so many workouts that I was like, I can't miss anymore. And so when my body would say, Yeah, you know, I'm tired, or the workouts weren't going well, I wasn't able to like adapt to it as well. I was trying to, but like a little bit, like in my train, but I'm like, oh, I already missed like two weeks, three weeks worth of like some key workouts. So that I think caused me a panic. Yeah, like this isn't what I had planned. This is as an A-type person, like this isn't going well. And instead of listening and being like, okay, maybe myself, maybe not jumping back into trying to get back to like 70 mile weeks where I was, maybe being like, okay, this maybe not possible to do the mileage like I was doing. So maybe cutting back on that a little bit and adjusting some of my training workouts a little bit better to listen to my body because I think there was, yeah, it was just like I've got to get back to where I was as soon as I can. But my body wasn't ready. And so I was pushing myself. So there may have been even an aspect there of a little bit of overtraining, like pushing myself almost too much into that um fatigue and overtraining. And I don't think I didn't notice it like as I was tapering, like I did when I truly had overtraining syndrome, because I was feeling pretty good the days up to the race. Um I didn't sleep very well the few nights before, which has been kind of a constant problem. But it was for sort of sort of slightly different reason, but it was um that could have affected it. But it was wasn't like I was like in the weeks, like the taper, I wasn't like, oh, I feel awful, like this isn't good. Because I did have several things times I was like, I'm feeling pretty good. So I don't know, like but I do think you're right. I think it was probably just trying to get back too soon and then maybe doing a little bit of almost like putting my where I wasn't really where if I just kind of taken it easier and not pushed myself so hard, would I have been able to recover a little bit better and those workouts in between, if not push, like maybe I just was pushing so hard I wasn't actually gaining fitness. I was just losing even more fitness. I don't know, you know, like but that's probably part of it. And I talked a little bit about this in that when I was talking about kind of um having setbacks, like I think that's a common thing for people to be like, oh my gosh, I gotta kind of make up. And I definitely experienced it there. And that's actually the first time that I can remember in any major marathon build, even you know, maybe because I'm getting older, maybe because of some of the factors and stress leading into that. But it was like the first time I've had such a major setback with ill, you know, with injury or illness. Um, so I don't think I never had experienced that before. You know, this is like we all you kind of live and learn sort of situation now. Looking back, it's like kind of doing that like analysis after the race, um, which I kind of let myself have like the rest of the day. I didn't think I tried not to think about it too much like that day after, and I kind of let myself have a day or two. And I really started processing it probably like m Monday actually before because I knew I had my road to grandma's recap that I want to record. So I really kind of process it a little bit Sunday on our drive when we were driving and then Monday. But um I kind of think like I don't know, that's like it's um yeah, I don't know. I just think it's kind of looking looking at it like okay, I didn't I just think it's just lack of experience, a little bit of like okay, this is yeah, there's like I think the illness was kind of the major breaking point. And I think there are other factors, but like sea level, running at sea level for two weeks before, I definitely lost and probably even with the heat training, some of my altitude benefit. I think that's a big factor, is just maybe not my usual pre-race, like you know, being in a like traveling. Um, but I think the major thing for me was that, you know, illness and then not really like pivoting or um, you know, afterwards, and that's that's fine. But I think if I'd pivoted, I might have been able to like just be like, I'm gonna enjoy this race. I'm just gonna like change my goal and then maybe sign up for a fall race and then still been enjoying the process and been like, okay, I can let this one be what it is. And maybe, but now I push myself so hard, I was like, I'm never, I'm not doing another marathon for another year, at least, you know. So using that.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

So I know, yeah. So the the next question that I would have for you is let's take off your athlete hat and put on your coach's hat. And this is something that I have to do with myself a lot as well. If if you were talking to the athlete in this situation, what would you what would you tell them in that circumstance? After the fact or like during No, no, they they've gotten they've gotten sick and they've lost some training time and you're starting to sense that there's a little bit of panic in their tone. I I sensed it when I would talk with you. Yeah, even even like through the text messages that we would have, I I could sense like there was a little bit of of panic and anxiety, and I I tried to reassure you, I was just like, well, we don't lose fitness that quickly, and so I was trying to to encourage a little bit so to kind of stave off that panic feeling that I was getting from you. And and it's common, I I get it from from athletes that I talk with as well. So, what would you tell your athlete in that situation?

SPEAKER_02 29:46

Yeah, I think I would probably tell them exactly what you were trying to tell me is like and that's just where I think like I I realize now, like I am really good, like I think when things are going well, I'm pretty good about like pivoting my workout so because I know like I know a miss workout isn't the end of the work at world. I I'm pretty good at pivoting, like because I I'm not too worried, but I think in this sense, where I'd lost so much, I stopped thinking like a coach. This is like, you know what I mean? Like I wasn't thinking like a coach anymore, and I self-coach. And so I think this is a perfect example of where having a coach might be helpful. Like I'm gonna change the way I do it next time with the trainings. I think that's where it's so hard to self-coach because sometimes we lose sight of the coach. We we don't have the coaching hat anymore, you know, and I think I kind of lost that. I was in that panic mode, just like you're saying. And now looking back, I can see that and I can go back to the training and some of the things I was like thinking and doing was irrational a little bit. Um, and so if it were me, like as a coach, yeah, I would have been like, this is it's you know, you need to listen to your body. We're going to pivot, we're gonna have to like change some of these workouts, we're gonna have to adjust and you don't lose fitness, you know, kind of that little reminder and like being able to be that person's um sense of reason a little bit and like studying the workouts and giving that reassurance as an athlete. Usually you kind of trust in the coach, you know, to make those decisions for you in a way. And hopefully they're still, you know, putting that trust in you. So I think if I'd had a coach, I would have been able to be like, okay, I'm gonna trust this person, I'm gonna do what they're saying. You know what I mean? Because I also am not the type of person that would probably go out and do my own things necessarily. To have had somebody taking the control away from me a little bit in that moment would have probably been better. For me, for me in that moment, it's just interesting because normally I think I do pretty well, but that was just an instance where it kind of went off the rails, I think, you know, where I did lose that. And I think I remember like thinking that a little bit, like somehow I'm exempt, like I can do this to myself and it's gonna be okay. I'm gonna be able to get myself back there and just kind of losing all that rationality. So it's it's it's interesting. And this is exactly I I think like we'll talk a little bit about how I might approach how I'm gonna kind of approach the marathon differently next time, um, because I'm not I'm not gonna go into it the same. That way, if things like this happen, I don't completely freak out. Somebody who thinks they can self-coach or follow like a program and then things kind of go off the rails and they have this tendency to then freak out and you know, try to make up all the workouts or continu, you know, go jump right back in without completely being recovered. I think that having a coach in that sense might be a good, a good plan because if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, this has happened to me a lot. I've done that same exact thing. Um, yeah, I mean, I did it, and I'm like I am someone that coaches other people, and I made like I myself struggled with that. So it's you can only imagine how you know almost anybody might do the same thing. So anyway, it's it's a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

It's really hard. It's really hard to wear the athlete hat and the coaching hat. I mean, so you know it is, it's hard. But I'm I'm a lot, I'm a lot better, I'm a lot better at like coaching somebody else than I am like coaching myself.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

So I think I'm maybe beginning to realize that a little bit myself. Like if things are like I said, if things are going well, I'm fine because I know I put the workouts together, but it's almost as if when things come totally unhinged, you know, something happens, it's like I had a really hard time pivoting in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

And last year, which makes sense because yeah, the way that I think about it is that if training is going well, I think of it like a bank account. So if things are going well, you're making regular deposits into this bank account. And so if if like one or two sessions don't go well, you feel okay because you've been just stockpiling cash this whole time. And you know that like one or two, you know, subpar workouts or like a missed session here and there is not going to affect the overall balance of the account. So you're you don't you don't get concerned. But if you make a huge withdrawal from that bank account, like two weeks of missed training from a sickness, then it makes sense that once you kind of get back to it, you look at the balance that's in that account and it's a lot lower than what you would like to see. So you are, I think you tend to take on more risk uh because because of that situation. And I I think it's it's common. I mean, I I like it that I don't want to say I like it that you experienced this, but I think I think it's it's it's valuable because the people that are listening to us know that we're we're fairly experienced athletes. We've been doing this for a long time. We're both coaches, and so the same stuff that affects a new person or just like an athlete affects us as well. And so we're we're no we're no different than anybody else that's in this sport. We have we have the same setbacks, we have the same situations that that we have to take care of, illnesses and recoveries and and injuries. I mean, we don't we don't get it right all the time. And we're just we're we're lucky every once in a while to for things to go well just like anybody else.

SPEAKER_02 35:09

So there's nothing special. And I really think this is like not only a learning opportunity for me and my own training, but as I'm working with other individuals who go through that, like to kind of know what that experience is like and to help them, because I obviously didn't approach it right, but now like I've kind of with the marathon, it was like, oh well, it's given me a lot of time to reflect on that. Had the marathon gone great, I don't think you know, I don't know if it would have, but because of the because of it, but like if it had, I don't know if I would have had time to really reflect on on that um so much and kind of how that how that illness kind of it just everything sort of changed, you know, in terms of my enjoyment of the process and um my be I think probably because I was so panicky, you know, it wasn't enjoyable anymore. And like how to maybe shift, you know, um and almost put someone at ease a little bit, but also like recognizing that sometimes we do have to let go of the outcome and kind of come up, you know, and and like maybe even going to a little bit of a different, like, okay, we're not gonna focus so much on pace, I you know, focusing more on like RPE and then kind of at some point sort of looking at where those paces are with that. So I wasn't pushing myself so hard to hit certain paces that I felt like it needed to hit in order to get this marathon time. And I wasn't able to hit those paces like after I got sick, um, like I was before. And I was struggling a lot. And so yeah, I might not have lost so much fitness, but somehow it took me a lot to get back to there to where I was before, and maybe if I had just kind of like gone by a different metric and tried to let go of the paces a little bit, it's hard to say and rest of it, but I think I would have approached it differently, and now knowing that I think then kind of applying how I would maybe approach it differently for myself, how I might approach it differently for another athlete going through the same thing and say, like, okay, we're not gonna let go of the outcome completely, but we might have to, but let's for now let's just try to do the workouts and focus more on how they feel versus like a specific time you're supposed to achieve and do it by RPE for a while, and then you know, we'll kind of come back and and analyze how things are going and then you know, sort of make that decision about the whether that race goal needs to be adjusted or not, you know, something like that, instead of like being so determined, like you know, so determined that I was gonna like hit these paces and get this goal time, um, and not even letting myself kind of like, okay, is this even feasible? I don't know. So I think I would approach it, you know, that whole scenario differently for myself, maybe next time, but also for athletes I work with. And then I do think um, yeah, it does make me think of about coaching, you know, coaching if I as a coach need a coach kind of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

I think that this really just confirms something that I think we both know um is that we become wiser from our struggles than we do our successes. And so uh I have over the years I've just I've dealt with a lot of challenges, you know, physically in in terms of like being able to compete. There's been a lot of finish lines that I've limped across and things just did not go well. And I think that it has absolutely made me a better coach having gone through those because now I have something to draw on when my athlete is under that under a situation that they don't have confidence in. Um it may not be like the same s scenario or the same situation, but I think it allows me to have a certain level of compassion or empathy with the athlete and say, look, I I understand how this feels. I mean uh I'm not saying that I've experienced the exact same thing, but here's something that I've experienced. So if I've could if I can get through this, you can absolutely get through this, and we're gonna do this together, and this is something that we're we're chasing after and we're going for it. I I would say that I would be a worse coach if every single race, every single race that I did went off perfectly. I had perfect execution, I was you know super consistent in my training and everything was was on target and I made the podium every single time, Kona qualifier and all this kind of stuff. I think I would be a worse coach.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Probably because you'd be like, why if you just do what I do, you'll always be successful and people.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

Yeah, I think that they're just reality. They're missing they're missing, I think, the emotional side and and the compassionate side of coaching.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Like coaches out there like that, though. There's gotta you can always have a perfect race. I mean, there's like like a But that's but that's what athletes are looking for.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

They're looking for their coaches to have some level of performance and use that as an instrument for the quality of their instruction and the quality of their training plans. Whereas that that's not necessarily the barometer of a good coach. And and you've told me this before. It's it's not what the performance that you're able to have, it's the performance that you're able to draw out of others, is what makes you a good coach. Because I've dealt with that same level of insecurity before, where it's just like I have to perform well so that people think I'm a good coach. And you help me kind of reassure that and say, no, it's not necessarily your performance, it's what can you get others to do? And I think I think with us both racing still as athletes, I think that there's a little bit. Do you think that there's a little bit of that in you where if you feel like you just don't you don't perform well at a race, that that there's some kind of uh question? Now now that you're that you're more open. I mean, we have the podcasts and there's a lot more exposure to us for with with people that we don't know. Do you think that there's a little bit of that?

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah, I mean, I g I guess I I guess people could be like, oh look, she didn't, you know, perform at grandma's. Like, I'm not gonna hire her, so maybe there are some thoughts like that. I mean, I guess like I'm trying to think what if I were looking for a coach, what I would be looking for. And I don't think it would be that they were like the most successful per runner necessarily. I guess I don't have that expectation so much for myself. In fact, I think I think differently. I kind of think there that experience and lived experience of like having some good races and maybe some struggles is what makes a better coach. But it maybe not everybody's thinking that way. So that's the way I think. So I'm assuming other people are thinking that way. But um, so it hasn't really like it wasn't really like something that crossed my mind when I didn't do well. I think it was more like I I want to prove, maybe a little bit, like I want to prove that I'm fast, you know, that I can still be fast, that I'm am capable. I know I'm capable of like a 255, or maybe even when I was younger, faster in the marathon, I know I'm capable of that. So I want to like prove I'm capable of that to myself and maybe at other people who may be doubting. I don't know. There's someone out there really doubting me. I I'm not sure. You know, maybe now people are, but it's like I'm at a 259, you know, it's like close, but I'm like, it's not so much from that perspective. I think it's kind of more from like, I want to prove I can do this, but not because I want to prove that I'm a good coach by it. I mean, I'm sure I'll have more successes. Um it's not as though it's been a complete loss. Like I've had some really fast, some really um happy, fast times in the 5K, and I'm hoping to achieve even more with that. And, you know, even taking me myself out of the comfort zone of trying something new like Hyrux or, you know, continuing with some of the 5K, 10Ks and getting speedier or trying to be as speedy as I can for my age. I mean, I'm not that I'm extremely old or anything, but I think there's gonna be more races in the future that are gonna go well. So if people are judging me off of that, I think they should be looking, okay, she's had some really good times and she's had some struggles, and that you know, should maybe make her a better coach. Because I mean, we're not gonna get it as coaches, like things happen to us as well. Like you're saying, it's not like we're in a bubble. I had everything right. It's just that like outside stress, is what I'm thinking happened, is like things in life that happen to us that we can't control anybody, coaches or not, maybe puts us more susceptible, plus high volume training that happens to anybody. And then you get sick. That's one of the risks of being an athlete and doing high volume training and living life, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I guess somebody could be like, oh, well, you're a dietitian. You should be eating healthy. You should never get sick. Like, that's if there's someone's expecting me of that of me, like, I don't know, then don't I don't want to be your coach, I guess, because you're expecting too much. Like, even a healthy person gets sick sometimes. I feel like hopefully they want me to coach them because I've had these experiences. And this is just like happens to be the first time that I can remember that I've had such a major setback, other than you know, when I had Hashimoto's and that diagnosis and that um whole overtraining thing. But since then, you know, this is the first time I've had like a huge major setback. And um it is a it was a learning experience. And I do think I'm now gonna be a better coach because of it. So hopefully people look more at that than they do at every single race going well. Because I think then you're right, somebody's going in that coach. If some of a coach has like had so many great uh outcomes and they've never really had a major setback or some or a bad race, then they then that's expecting of that's what they expect of you then, kind of, you know, because they're gonna be like, oh, you just follow what I've done. Look, I've had all these great performances. I've never had uh a truly disappointing race. If you just do, if you just follow the the formula, you're gonna have this great race too, because they're ex they've never experienced that, so they're gonna expect that you don't either, I guess. You know, and then when you do, they I don't know, maybe they're like, what the heck's wrong with you? Maybe I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

But I'm thinking those kind of those kind of coaches, I call them training plan coaches. Because they're the ones that think that that if you just if you just follow the plan, everybody you would just have success no matter what, versus a practitioner who actually you know coat will coach the athlete and not coach to the plan. So I I think that that's that's what uh the way that I kind of describe those. Um I I think then it it's interesting because the conversation that I have with athletes, um, even as an athlete, where I'm not wearing my coach's hat, I'm just sitting around the table and I'm talking with with other athletes, and you know, they'll they'll talk about somebody that they know, and the way that they'll describe them is like, oh, they're fast, you know, they're they're talented here. Not once have I had a conversation where an athlete has said, Do you know this person? They're not the fastest person, but they are the most determined person that I know. They they they don't perform well, and they may come in the back half of the pack, but they cross that finish line no matter what. And I've never had one of those conversations. And so I I think that there tends to be this thought where people are are chasing the performance because I don't know if they're just looking for for validation or they want to be described as, oh, I know that person, they're really fast.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

No, and I don't know if maybe sometimes this plays into our our mental our mental acuity when it comes to you know the process of training and how how we execute races, if we we show up on race day and the training plan didn't go like we hoped, but we're still chasing that that goal that we had when we clicked on the registration button before any training took place, it kind of makes me question sometimes. And I I don't really know where I'm going with this, but um it was just something that just kind of popped into my head. It's just how how performance seems to be the the primary way of describing an athlete rather than their experience as an athlete. Or how I I hope I hope that makes sense because it makes sense in my own mind, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 47:43

Even how much they've yeah, like how how how consistent they are or how um they show up even if they're not like the fastest, but they're like put a lot of effort in and they're not, you know, we're not really s people aren't really um that that's not being like the the thing that's not observable. It's not observable, first of all, unless you're posting things all the time, or if somebody maybe sees it on Strava or something, wow, they're really consistent and they are really doing a lot and they're putting a lot of effort in, you know, maybe, but um it's it's hard to observe that. So when we have a race, all you're looking at is like who's you know, what times are people running and who's winning or on the podium versus who's not in the people that aren't, you know, maybe don't have the fastest times or aren't on the podium, don't seem to get generally as recognized. Um although some sometimes they do, but I think it's definitely m so much uh so much of the media and so much of the attention is on those fast faster time, you know, people who are achieving faster times and not so much like oh you know, this pr individual has their they're finishing and they've done this many races, or I don't know, like there's no uh other like recognition for other you know, things that people are doing other than just their time, which I guess makes sense because it's like that's how it's measured, right? This is why I like ultra running a little bit more, because it still has a time you're measuring, I guess. Like there are still and now even more so, but because there's like course records and things, but um there's a lot a little l like a little more forgiveness in that in some ways because of the challenge of the terrain and the different factors going into it. It's like a 5k where you know what your 5k time is, unless you've done like a hundred mile race, like you don't know really what that's takes. So sometimes time is a little bit more arbitrary. We have these people, there's a little more emphasis on like the people that are out there, you know, a little bit longer, and everybody is kind of um I think I think there's a lot more like excitement even for like the pros to come back and like cheer on people coming through. There's this the community and ultra running is I think be changing. So maybe I feel I sense it's becoming a little bit more like all the other races, which makes me sad. But when I first started to do some ultra marathons and started to dabble in that community a little bit, I had the sense that it was like everybody was sort of cheered on and celebrated for just completing, you know, like that's a lot to run. But and and there's so many variables just to get through that. You're everybody's celebrated for that in a way. You know, you do have the fast people, but the everybody's kind of like, wow, this is a major achievement. And I don't see that so much in like the marathon or you know, obviously some of the faster, shorter races, I mean.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

So um what what what's kind of sad is that there there doesn't seem to be any points for heart. I would say I I could say that if I had if I was working with an athlete and uh we we trained well, but we had an issue that that happened during the training and we still wanted to race, so go ahead and race. They're at the starting line and then they they're off and they're chasing that performance. And then they get to the halfway point of the race, and then they realize that they're not going to hit that performance goal, and then they just they just bag it. They just say, No, I'm not, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna finish it. I'm not gonna get the result that I want. Um I I'll just try it, try again another time. Then I have another athlete who has the same scenario, they're on the starting line, they chase the performance and they're off, and then they realize they're not gonna hit that goal, but they dig in and they just find it some way, somewhere to get through the race, knowing that they weren't going to get the performance that they wanted, but they had the heart to finish it no matter what. And they caught they they finished what they started. To me, to me, I would work with that second athlete any day of the week versus that first one.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Yeah, and you're bringing up an interesting thought for me, just real quick, like thinking about what you're just saying, like, because you're absolutely right, like somebody who has no context for what happened and what I went through, like with the training for the race, that it didn't go as planned, and all of this stuff would look at my time, and maybe they maybe they've seen other times, or they saw that I, you know, last year did a through 29 or whatever, and they would be like, Oh, that sucks. She didn't perform very well. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like it somebody might see, like, well, what happened? Kind of making this assumption that um I didn't put in the effort or or something happened. Oh, feeling almost like bad for, oh, well, that sucks for this person because they didn't get the time. Their time was, I mean, that's the time I got was still good. Like it's not like it wasn't a good time. It's just comparable to where I wanted to be and what I could be achieving, like accomplishing, you know, achieving. Like, yeah, it was not what I set out to do. And if someone's looking at what I was wanting to accomplish and they're like, wow, you really like failed. And that's the thing I think that's sad about it, is that you're right. There's no, there's no appreciation or thought to like, oh, well, maybe something, what I wonder what happened, and then even seeing what happened in the race, like exactly as you're saying, like I got halfway in or a little over, and I'm like, this isn't happening for me today. Um, and then I stuck it out. Like I finished the race, even when there was so many times, I was in a lot of discomfort. Like I was and I just kept going and then finished it. And I got my and I'm proud of that, you know. I don't people don't see that piece of it, because it's hard. You you know, you you can't we just have our times posted, right? That's all it's supposed to. Other than maybe sharing your own story. I think just like being out there talking about it and sharing it, that's probably the only way to kind of to do that is, you know, maybe why people post things on social media and it's not as an excuse. Like I don't also want to think people to be like, oh um, I'm just making excuses for my being. I guess it's kind of an excuse, but it's like I'm not like I didn't bag the marathon because I wasn't it wasn't like I was like going to achieve it, you know, and I just like gave up and I'm like, or whatever. It was like there's truly no way I was going to achieve that goal. My body was not was giving up on me like just uh over like I was already starting to feel it at like mile 14 or 15, like it wasn't gonna be my day, you know. I think the telling thing is that I I kept going for, you know, I you know I did go for it, but maybe in retrospect I should have like changed my goal a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

But um I think what's impress I think what's impressive is that you didn't you didn't go into the race already with the excuse of, oh, today is just going to be uh a training day, because I hear that a lot. Where it's just like, oh, training didn't go very well, so they're not going to get the performance that they want or the performance that they talked about and and you know shared with others on you know what they wanted to achieve, and then they get to race day and they realize that oh something something didn't happen, something uh or they weren't consistent with their training or something outside of their control. And so they go into the race already bagging it and just already with the excuses built into it, it's just like, oh, well, if you see my time later, this is this is why I I didn't really I didn't really race it. I just went in and just went for the completion. That's one of the things that really impressed me with you is that despite the hurdles that you went through during the training, you showed up on race day willing to execute the plan that it would that would require you to meet the performance goal that you had from the very start, regardless of how training went. I think that says a lot more about you as an athlete than if you would have just gone in and just said, Oh, you know, I I kind of abandoned my goal uh because something, you know, happened in training. I I think that there can be a time and place for that, but I don't think the situation that you were in was dire enough to where you should have you should have just abandoned your goal. I think it took guts to go ahead and execute that plan and then realize because I think that you would have you would have had way more regret at the end of the race if you would have just gone in with with a revised expectation or a revised goal, because then you would be sitting there thinking, well, could I? Could I have done it?

SPEAKER_02 56:29

And I did it, and I knew that's the thing. And then realized, you know, at some point where there was just some physical things happening and mental, and I just was like, okay, this is this is not going to happen today. But I went for it. You're right. And I think that's probably why I didn't have too many regrets about the actual race, because there wasn't anything I had my nutrition, I had my I was really hydrating very well. I had they had it wasn't even a hot day, and I had ice. Um, they get the hand out ice and I was like putting holding the ice, putting, you know, I was doing everything right. And I was really focusing on hydration and I was trying to get my fueling in. It didn't start to unravel until everything else started to unravel. And that's when the nutrition, and not so much the hydration, but the nutrition started to unravel when I started to feel pretty bad. And I was over, like realized I'd maybe overdone it. Um, but it was like, but while I was going for it, everything was executed as I was, or I was executing it as I had planned. So it wasn't nutrition. Like we're going through all those things of like what's in your control. And I'm like, well, what it wasn't the weather, it wasn't the nutrition, it wasn't the hydration, might have been a little bit the sleep, probably the illness I had, you know, we talked about that. Um, and probably sleep might have affected it. I mean, there's things that were other out otherwise maybe like slightly out of my control, but a lot of those things, it's just the pacing, but I went for it. I did have those thoughts, like maybe I need to adjust, like maybe this is gonna be my day. I'm not sleeping well. I had, you know, I'm I'm worried about it a little bit. I know the training wasn't perfect, but I didn't do that. I did come into the race day and I did go for it, you know. So I don't think I would have been able to get it. I wasn't going the pace even in the beginning. That would have been so I adjusted, I guess, slightly where I was like, okay, I'm gonna hang on and try to just get under 259 if I can. So I I I think that's a lot of it was like whatever I did to myself pushing so far early, just like going through and finishing like that last six miles between which is generally a hard piece, anyways, always is hard in the marathons particular one because I was struggling so badly. Was it it was like an emotional journey. I don't even know how to describe it. I went through like a journey, like some sort of journey of my own in those last six miles that I don't think I've ever been through. There's one time I did like a 25-mile trail race that I really wasn't prepared for, and I was crying midway. I had an emotion, but it was it was a very negative experience where I was just like the whole race was a very negative experience for me, and I was crying and shouldn't have done it. I should I went into it with expectations outside expectations that I was, anyways. This particular one, it was like in a journey, and I didn't cry during, I cried after I was done, but more because I was just so glad to be finished. But it was like an emotional journey of just like hanging in there, and it was like ever it was like I was so internally focused on just the next step and moving forward, and it was interesting. I've never had that sort of experience, I don't think, where I've been just sort of in this pain cave, just trying to get through, which you know, like according to Walter, the ultra marathon talks about the pain cave and just like trying to sort of be in it. And I was trying with all my might to just embrace it, you know, and it was hard because I wasn't really embraced.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

It's a hard place to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

But it was like I learned a lot, I think, about myself and what I'm able to push through in those last six miles, and that was a that itself was an ex, you know, a learning experience. I think why I wasn't so disappointed because I'm like, wow, that was that was something. I don't know. That was something else. But it was like one of those like come to Jesus, I don't know the right word for it, but it was like oh, like wow, like almost spiritual, but in like a painful way. So yeah. I don't know if anyone ever I don't recommend pushing so hard that you do that, you know, necessarily experience that, but for me it was definitely like some sort of um like you know, emotional thing that I went through there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

I think it's I think it's a life-changing event. Yeah, I really do. I mean, because I I experienced the same thing at at Florida where it was just I've I've done a lot of races and that one, like I like I said before, it broke me. And it was a place that I needed to go. I didn't want to go. Um because I you know, I had gone into this race and I was like, this is gonna be my my redemption. I've lost you know, I've spent four years away from the sport and now this is my shot back. And it was almost like three weeks before the race, and I was on crutches, I was already grieving what I knew was inevitable that I was not going to have the race that I envisioned just months before. And so I hadn't even gotten to the finish line and I was already knowing that this is I'm I'm not going to see what it is that I wanted to see. But I had to still find a way to just say, but I'm not giving up. Because I think I think many I don't want to say maybe many people would have just said, no, I'm I'm not doing that. You know, you're on crutches, you know, the week of your race, and you s and you still go out there and do it. I I don't know very many people who would who would do that, but it was something that I had to do, and you know, it was something that I had to experience. And as I continue to move forward, I'm drawing on that experience that I had at Florida. And it it it definitely feeds into this this next question that I've got that I want to talk about fairly quickly. Um is the I is the idea of the redemption of the revenge race or the redemption race. Because I we've all experienced it. I know that I've experienced it uh before, and I I can remember the end of one, I think it was like my first half Iron Man or maybe just a couple of them. That I don't I'd done a couple of them, but I didn't have the experience that I wanted to, but I knew I was fit and and I wanted I wanted to see that number. I I I wanted to see it. And so I was reaching out to friends and I was just like, you know, I didn't have the race that I really wanted, but you know, there's another race that's in three weeks. Should I should I do it? You know, I I want I want to get redemption, I want to get revenge. And they uh unanimously told me no, don't don't do it. And it it begs the question on when is that redemption race or that revenge race a reasonable and healthy thing to do versus when is it not? So I'm I'm curious on on what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Yeah. Um I think yeah, like it kind of goes back to what I was saying before is like how you're feeling after you're just so ready to be done and you're just signing up because you're angry. Like, I think that's probably where it's not okay. Um I think allowing yourself to kind of process through some of those emotions, like that your experience around the race, like the frustration, the anger, disappointment, even you know, maybe there's other other emotions, but it's like giving yourself time. I just don't think it's ever good when you're had a really disappointing race to just be like immediately the next day or even that day looking up races. Well, what what can I do? First of all, if you've actually run the race, unless you've totally bagged it, in which case, I don't know, like then you didn't even give it a shot. I don't know, like be disappointed for other reasons, I guess. But like you're you do have to recover. Three weeks is a little bit too soon, I think, for most situations where it's a really long race. It's like a 5k, maybe. I think this is really for people who are doing like a 5k, sure, you know, sure, do it again, you know. But for like a longer race where it took that much effort, you've had a huge bill, like a marathon, half Iron Man, Iron Man, or anything, you know, above um in distance, you know, half half marathon may be a little questionable to do it three weeks later, but you probably could bounce into one, and it wouldn't take a like a huge toll, maybe, but it's really those longer races where there's a lot of uh into that takes into the process of it and the execution of it and the actual toll it takes on your body. I would just encourage anyone to take a week or just take a time to process through the emotions. And if if you're on the computer looking for races like the very next day, I think you might regret that decision to sign up unless you're truly like chomping out the bitch of train, really enjoying the process. You just had a disappointing race, but you're jumping right back in because you're just so excited to keep going. I mean, maybe, but then again, I think get you know, look out a ways. Don't do, don't do it like three weeks, you know, six weeks what I did. And it wasn't even like I was said, I wasn't disappointed in New York. In fact, that was that race was was great. I had a good race. I just didn't tune my time goal, but I I didn't even know, you know, I was just getting right back into train running marathons after not running since 2017. So I wasn't even sure what I was exactly capable of. And I think I was just excited. I'm like, oh it's so close. Let me try again, you know. So I think it also depends a little bit on how that, like, is it truly a disappointing race? Or you're just kind of like, I you know, you're I don't know. But I would give yourself some time. I don't hit that, you know, register button. Like, fine, look up races. If that's how you process it, it's kind of like thinking about your next race and you're trying to process it. Fine, but don't register. Give yourself a a week or so to think about it and process through the race, some time off from running, maybe, or or your sport. And then if you're still really wanting to do it, like and you've had some time to process, maybe do whatever you need to do that helps you process through that, whether it is, you know, doing movement or um spending time with family or relaxing or you know, whatever. Um, and then a week later or two weeks later, if you're still like really wanting to do it, sure, I guess do it. Just let yourself process. Don't do it right away. That would be my don't pull the trigger, you know what I mean? Uh, because I think you I think usually what happens, like I said, even I was thinking that like a couple days after. Like, oh, maybe I'll do that one. There's one in St. George and St. George George, Utah, that's like kind of a downhill one. And so it's close. I don't have to travel too far. I'm like, maybe I'll do that one in October. There's CIM. I wonder if I can still register for that one in December. You know, it gives me enough time. But I let myself have those thoughts and kind of like, oh, that's not okay. Yeah, I'll I'll think about that. But after a week, I was realizing, like, yeah, that's I'm not doing that. I'm not ready. So I think we all kind of have those thoughts, but to not uh pull the trigger, I think. And then for me, I don't know if I'll have a revenge race. Like I've given this a lot of thought after that race of how I would even approach it next time. And I was talking with Justin a little bit before we start a recording. This is the other thing I think is maybe before you decide you're gonna do a revenge race of the same exact distance, maybe consider giving yourself a break and focusing on something else for a little while. Like don't take a, you know, do some what I mean by that is like in if you're always doing Iron Man's, could you focus on something speedier for a while? Really like a like an Olympic distance, or like if you're a marathon runner focusing on the 5K or even getting on the track. I don't know. Like do something different for a little while so you can switch it up and give yourself a little bit of break, but you're still training and then go back to it. So that's kind of what I'm doing right now. I have a mile race. I don't um just based off kind of what I'm experiencing right now. I think it's just gonna be more to see like how fast can I run the mile off of not much, not a ton of training. We'll see how that one goes, but I'm not, um I don't have a lot of pressure for myself for that. And then I'm sort of building into that high rocks, which is like totally out of my wheelhouse. It's nice because I'm doing something totally different, like the training's gonna be different, like I'm gonna still run, but there's gonna be some elements that are very different, it's gonna be exciting. And then I'm thinking, okay, if I do do another marathon, it's not going to be until next year at the earliest. How am I gonna approach it differently? What have I learned from the last few? And I think the one thing I will do differently, I don't know, I'll still think about hiring a coach, but I want to go into it maybe like changing my expectation for mileage and maybe doing a little more cross-training and um kind of going into it where I don't have a time expectation. I'm just gonna train and I'm gonna do it by RPE more so and still have like some harder training and obviously some of those elements that you want to be able to rip do to perform. But I'm not just gonna like run every I'm actually trying to do some workouts and long runs and that kind of thing like I normally would, but I'm going to do it our based on RPE, and then at some point along the way, you know, I'll I'll start to look a little bit more at the times I'm running and and and formulate my goal, not in the beginning, but sort of in the middle or at the end. So I'm so it may be, I may be surprised, you know. I might be like, wow, like I'm doing really good because I want to really be able to listen to my body. And if I do get sick, not feel like I think that was exactly as you're saying, all that pressure, all that panic I had to be able to have that kind of thing happen and be like, oh, oh, okay, well, I guess, you know, I guess we'll see, because I'll have to analyze how I'm doing. But it's it takes that pressure off the outcome. And instead, I can kind of go into it and and train and put the effort in, but not be so, yeah, and just kind of be like, well, whatever it's gonna be, it could be three thirty my PR days are maybe over, and that's okay. Or maybe I'll surprise myself. I don't know. But I wanna I love the process, and I think that this focus I've had, especially after that illness, intense focus on meeting the expectation, just took the fun out of it. And I'm okay, I don't wanna I just don't want to fall into that trap again. So I don't know when that's gonna be, but this is how I'm gonna approach it differently. And I kind of feel like maybe maybe other people should uh, you know, unless you're like a professional runner and you have to kind of focus a little more on your outcome. So maybe maybe that is a a good way to do it. I don't know. I'll have to see see how it all how it all shakes out for me. But I don't wanna be, I don't sick of like being so focused on I've gotta be, you know, I've gotta I've gotta have a PR. I don't know. Yeah. So that's where I'm gonna that's yeah, that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:17

I like the shift of focus from from an out from an outcome driven perspective to a process oriented uh perspective. I I like that. I like that shift. And it's something that I use in my own training. I've kind of gotten rid of I've kind of abandoned the the outcome focus and found that I enjoy training more when I have a process-oriented view on training rather than an outcome-driven view where I'm chasing something. Um I find that I enjoy training much better. I enjoy race day much better. Um, and then sometimes I surprise myself where you know I show up on race day and it's just like, wow, that that materialized. And there was there was no focus on training to hit a particular outcome, but the outcome showed up because I committed to the process. And that's something that I try and work with my athletes on is let's just focus on the process.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:19

You have to look at what you're doing to have some sort of idea of what sort of pa I mean, I guess you could just go into it and totally be it based off RPE, even not even like metal law. You know, like that's I'm not sure I'm there yet. Like, I don't know. I'm like somewhere in the middle of it. I'm like where I'm at is I want to just kind of start the training plan and really just focus on the process and like RPE base instead of like, oh, I've got to hit this time for this workout, just kind of like how I'm feeling. And um, you know, I might look a little bit at time, but I'm not gonna have that be like the focus because it's hard not to, you know. But I'm not gonna be like, oh, I'm hitting I have to hit this time, like just more of an obs observer of the the pace, but not so much like I have to hit a pace. And then at some point, you know, maybe eight weeks out or far enough out that I can kind of but not too far, you know, maybe even closer. Looking at the times I'm running and kind of like doing more analysis of that and actually sort of starting to focus more and then sort of seeing able to what am I able to maybe achieve and then having some sort of you know, oh well, wow, I'm doing so good. I might be able to kind of go for a sub-three again. Or okay, like I'm doing you know, oh maybe this is like a 310, you know, sort of pacing. I've been okay with however it comes out. I think the problem I'm gonna have is that whatever that whenever that happens is won't going into the race. And I still have to deal with, especially if if it is like I'm anywhere close to a PR, I still have to deal with that pressure and that um the the buildup into the race. Um there's still that piece that you know that I guess you wouldn't have to deal with if you're just going based off of R RPE and you're not looking at pace at all, which is freeing. So I don't know. I think that's kind of I I have to deal with that when I have road bridge when I have to cross it, but I um I think that's kind of what I'm thinking, you know, at least something something like that. But just approaching it very differently and approaching the training a little bit differently, you know. I feel like there's so much pressure, there's so much talk about volume and volume, and I've the thing is, like I've been doing volume, like my whole life I've been running. I've accumulated a lot of like miles on my legs. I just am like, I don't I get it. Like you can't go and run a 30 miles a week and run fast. You know, you can do it and train and you can finish a marathon okay, but you can't really do that and do like a a sub three unless you're maybe an elite runner or something. So um I have to do some level of something. But I think what it's like, but I don't know, I don't think I'm one of those people that does really great off of more and more and more volume. I don't think that's helping me. At some point there's a ceiling. I kind of hit that, you know what I mean? So now it's like I gotta think of other more other ways to maybe get some sort of simulate some volume without the wear and tear on my legs. And then um I do go back to when I was doing that ultra marathon that I had so much success in um the run rabbit run. And I'm like, I was doing a lot more like CrossFit style workouts and doing, I know it's a diff 50 miles is totally different than a marathon, but I'm like, I don't know, I felt really good when I was doing that and combining that and less and not volume. I wasn't running like what normal ultra runners run. And so I'm almost thinking maybe I just need a little bit of a different type of stimulus. Um, not totally different, but just something a little bit different. So I'm gonna I'm gonna experience, experiment a little bit, maybe. Um and just make it fun and and keep it interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

When it comes to when it comes to the revenge race or the redemption race, what I tend to tell my athletes and what I do myself is that we're we're not looking at races for for at least seven days. And then I ask the question, why do you want to race? And so if if you're just sitting there and you're just looking through races, I recommend that you you ask yourself, why why do I want to do this? And if the answer is you want a particular outcome, then take a closer look and I would I would advise to reconsider. If the answer to that question is uh I love this process, I missed the training, so I I want to continue the training, I love the structure, I just want to get better. Then to me, I think that that is a reasonable and valid uh uh decision on on whether to whether to race sooner uh rather than you know kind of just deloading or whatever. That's that's what I tend to do with my with my athletes. So it stays it it helps protect them from bad impulsive decisions.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Um you sign up for something too soon and then you're kind of um disappointed again, potentially, because you didn't allow yourself time to recover, your heart wasn't in it, you know. So it's hard to do the training and really put in the effort when you're not enjoying the process. So I think that sort of puts you in a situation to maybe be disappointed again and kind of go through talked with people who've kind of done that, or they're like constantly chasing something, like they're constantly doing the marathon again and again and again, and they're sort of like doing the same process each time or the same training plan even, and they're not really switching it up or thinking about it like, okay, how could I implement this differently or better? And it's like, well, you know, they have the same outcome every time, or they're not able to like achieve better, you know, or whatever, if that's their goal is to get better or faster, um, because they just keep doing the same thing over and over again, essentially. They're perpetually in this cycle. Um, and I so I also want to encourage people to think about that. Like, you know, if you have you been chasing this, like that's kind of where I think I've been a little bit. Like, okay, now it's been I've done and I have had some success. I'm not saying, but it's like it's been four marathons, and I just can't seem to be able to cross this barrier that I'm looking to cross. How many more times am I gonna keep doing the same process and and and and achieving this similar result? And it's fine if I get a similar result, but maybe I've changed the process or my the way I'm approaching it is differently. But I feel like I've been I've approached, I mean, I've changed some of my training, but I kind of keep doing something similar each time. And so I'm ready to just take a break and then maybe try it again differently. So I would encourage people to kind of think about that too, is if you're going to do it again, kind of having these and you're never quite satisfied with your result, and you keep kind of signing up again to you know, and you're almost in the cycle, which I think some people are, to take a break, do something different, and then come at it in a different way. So you, you know, try something different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:06

Like like like we've said before, that fatigue is cumulative, but so is disappointment. Right. Yeah and discouragement. So if you if you're just chasing race after race, looking for a better outcome, or you're chasing something like that, just know that every single time that that you finish off a race and you're disappointed, that sticks with you a little bit longer and it accumulates more and more and more. And I found that when when I work with athletes that have that mindset, their longevity in the sport is in question. They they just they don't stick around. They'll they'll they'll find something else to do because eventually they just say, Well, what's the point of doing this? Um, I'm I'm never able to s to see the result that I want to see, even though they may be good results, they're not what they want. And so they'll just go find something else. So that's not that's not what I want for them as a coach, or you know, or just for the health of the sport in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:58

So And you want people to achieve what they want, but sometimes it I think it's like what's the definition of insanity, like doing something for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:07

Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:12

So it's just something to think about. I think people, you know, kind of think thinking about that if you're in that sort of cycle too, to to figure out, you know, maybe um how to how to break that a little bit so you can enjoy it and all you're really thinking about is that outcome and that time or whatever it is, uh thinking about something you can do to make it more enjoyable the process and um what you get out of the sport, you know, yeah like kind of that why again, what are you getting like like what are you getting from it that does nothing to do with the time you achieve? Like, you know, how is it helping you or how is it um adding to your life or to how do you feel better about yourself because you're out there every day training and how is that adding to your life? And it should be something a little more meaningful, I think, than just I've got to have this time, or I want people to think I'm fast or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

Yeah, I also want to reference uh another episode that we did. Is your race ruined after missing training? How to adjust after a setback. So this kind of ties into this conversation a little bit. We talk about your illness in that episode, I feel, um, but it's episode 91 where we talk about how to adjust your training plan going forward or how to deal with setbacks. So if you want a little bit of a deeper, deeper look into kind of the uh the foundation of this episode, some of these episodes that we've that I've mentioned before uh kind of lay the foundation for what it is that we're talking about today. So if you want to go back and check out those other episodes, uh it might shed some additional light. But I think that this wraps us up. So this has been uh a really great conversation. I've really enjoyed having this one. I really I like these coaches' corners because they're a little bit less structured.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:58

Um they're more like interest, like we're diving almost.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

This is a lot more of a vulnerable episode where we just kind of just talk. And you know, there's there's there are points that we're trying to make, but it's really kind of just an introspective. It forces me to look inward and say, okay, how is it that I really feel? And what are some of the experiences that I've had, and what can I share with others that may that may be useful to them? But I really enjoy these conversations. So thank you, Katie, for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

Uh so this has been episode 110 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, where we talk today about uh how to deal with a disappointing race, what to do next, uh, how to how to look at that experience and either build on it or use it as a foundation to try something new. Uh, it doesn't mean that you don't ever come back because you can absolutely do that. And there's nothing wrong with trying to find other things that may that may spark your interest and leverage some of the fitness that you've accumulated, and you just try something different. What I've learned is that my passion grows deeper when I take breaks like that. So if I if I take a break and then my you know I I focus on something else, then when it comes time to come back, I'm way more passionate, I'm way more determined and motivated, and it's a reign of of the fire that's inside. So that's one of the things that I that I would like to depart and uh to leave you guys with. So there's nothing wrong with trying something new. Uh so uh do our typical housekeeping. So if you have found this episode uh where it uh kind of spoke to you, uh it resonated with you, or if you know somebody else who's who's going through this process and you think it would help them, I hope that you will consider leaving a comment, leaving a review for the episode and sharing the episode with with whoever you think it would be helpful for. Uh, those are greatly appreciated. I thank you guys so much for the reviews and comments that you are leaving. Uh, there's also on the YouTube channel as well where we post a video of all the episodes. You can leave comments and reviews there and subscribe as well because we're on all the major podcast platforms as well as YouTube. Um, we do not monetize this podcast. So we don't have sponsors, we don't have ads and commercials. We just come to you the whole time, not connected to anybody else that drives the conversation. I'm not trying to sell you hemp mattresses and supplements. So uh these comments and reviews really, really help us way more than you would think that they do, because it the more comments and reviews it gets, the more it gets returned in the algorithm to help others find the podcast. So it only takes a couple seconds just to click on however many stars that you think it's worth, just a simple comment, hey, it was great, uh, enjoyed the content, keep it coming, kind of stuff. Those are really, really appreciative and they help us greatly. So I hope that you guys will consider that. And if you've done it, thank you so much. We also have the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast Group. It's a private group that's on Facebook. We started it from day one. We wanted to build a community that allows us to connect with the listeners and have listeners be able to directly connect with us. Uh, we find that that is really important for the growth and the health of the podcast as well as the growth of people that we're trying to help. I mean, it goes way beyond just like podcast episodes. Uh, so this is a community that we would like to continue to foster and grow. So all you do is you just go for the you search on Facebook, it's the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast Group. You answer one simple question and you agree to the group rules and it lets you write on in. Uh, thank you so much if you consider doing that. We also pinned a poll in that podcast group where we talked that where we asked you guys if you found these these race builds or these introspective looks uh at some of our races. We we've dedicated podcast episodes to those. So if you go back and you'll find the the Iron Man Florida 70.3 uh documentary that that I put out, you also have Katie's grandma's marathon build. All those are just their solo episodes. If you find those episodes helpful and you enjoy them, please uh register your vote in in that and podcast group and tell us you know if you want us to continue to do episodes like that and uh why you like them or if you don't like them, let us know that too. So we want to we want to bring you material and and content that is helpful to you and that you enjoy. So uh let us know what you think. We're also active coaches, so we're bringing on athletes onto our rosters. And so if you're looking for for help in your journey, if you're tired of trying to figure out what workouts you should be doing, how many you should be doing, what's the intensity mixture that you should be doing, how many times should I be running, how many times should I be cycling? Uh I don't I don't know I don't know really how to swim well, so uh all I do is I just go in and just swim straight. Uh, but I need some help to try and develop that. Uh I hope that you will consider one of us as as your coaches. Uh at least have a conversation. No, no, no, I'm I'm getting there. So if you're looking if you're looking for dietetic support for for any for any sport, or if you're looking for run coaching, that would be one-on-one cus uh custom coaching or training plans, you can reach out to coach Katie at fuel the number two run.com. If you're looking for multi-sport or single sport um training plans, you can uh reach out to me, Coach Justin, at taboularassa racing.com. I do custom plans as well as one-on-one custom coaching on a month-to-month basis. So uh we hope that you will reach out and at least ask us a few questions, see if we'd be a good fit for you, uh, because the athlete coach relationship is way more than just training plans and races. Uh, we're on a journey together. And so we want to make sure that it's a good fit and uh that we can at least talk to you on how we can help. Uh what else do we have? I I think that covers it. Uh I think that's the extent of the housekeeping. So I'm gonna let you guys go. So this is again, this has been episode 110 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. I've been your host, Coach Justin, along with Coach Katie, and we thank you guys for the continued support and continue to listen to us. Uh, and we'll come back to you again next week with another new topic. Until then, uh, happy training, everyone, and we'll talk to you again next time. All right. Bye-bye. That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience. Lessons that carry far beyond the workout. Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts, it comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous. Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day. If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey. Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another. We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie. Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Have questions or comments about the podcast? Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com. For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at fuel the number two run dot com and coach Justin at taboularasta racing.com. Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast and remember to find joy in the journey.