The Endurance Rules That Don’t Work for Every Athlete

The most confident advice is not always the right advice for you.

Endurance athletes are surrounded by rigid rules about training, race goals, indoor workouts, and fueling. But what happens when the accepted formula does not fit your fitness, experience, body, or life?

In this listener Q&A episode, Coach Justin and Coach Katie explain how to evaluate common endurance recommendations, apply them with context, and make decisions based on the athlete in front of you—not a one-size-fits-all prescription.

What You’ll Learn

• How to recognize credible training advice—and the red flags behind overly certain claims
• When your race goal should guide training and when completed training should reset the goal
• What treadmills and indoor bike trainers do exceptionally well—and what they cannot prepare you for
• Why carbohydrate targets require more nuance than body weight, age, or a universal grams-per-hour formula

Timestamps

00:00 – Listener Q&A and training-life updates
12:13 – How do you know which training advice to trust?
22:26 – The difference between textbook knowledge and athlete-specific coaching
25:49 – Why elite-athlete advice may not apply to you
31:24 – Should race goals dictate training—or should training dictate race goals?
39:39 – How fixed goals can limit performance
44:56 – When race expectations should change during a training cycle
47:38 – Can you prepare for a race on a treadmill or indoor trainer?
50:20 – The strengths and limitations of indoor bike training
53:22 – Why treadmill training can be highly effective
57:47 – How should endurance athletes calculate carbohydrate needs?
1:13:35 – Carb targets, gut training, athlete size, and age

For coaching inquiries:

Coach Katie → https://fuel2run.com

Coach Justin → https://tabularasaracing.com

Podcast Email → theenduranceathletejourney@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Welcome everyone to the Internance Athlete Journey Podcast. I'm your host, Coach Justin. I'm here with Coach Katie. And today's episode is 111. And we are doing our first listener QA episode. So we reached out to various social media platforms that all of us that both of us are active on and uh asked for questions from athletes to see if there's something that they have been kicking around, they just haven't been able to figure out, or just to get some additional guidance on something, just shed a little bit more light. But uh we've got some good results back, and so now we're going to jump right on in. Uh let's do a little bit of a recap on what our week has been like. It has been quite the week. Um, so Katie, how is your uh how's your week been?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Um it's been busy because my son is home with me more. Um it's the summertime, obviously, for those parents out there. So he's just here and kind of balancing having him home more and trying to do camps. So it's been interesting just trying to get work done and do things and then train. I think training for me has been hard because I can't go out until like the middle of the day sometimes, and it's already been like a hundred, I think it was like 105 degrees yesterday. Um here. It was just it's just been um hard. I I feel like right now I'm kind of struggling trying to try to do the training, trying to do the work, trying to balance everything. Um, but today I did get to go do a donkey run. They there's a woman here that kind of lives in the closer into the mountains near Fort Collins that has a bunch of donkeys and she does these runs where she has basically people come and you can run with a donkey, and they we all go in like a pack together and we just run down the road. And I'm trying to learn more about donkeys. I don't think I've ever shared this, but I have a mini donkey that I'm trying eventually would love to actually run and do one of those burrow races with. I don't know if you've ever heard of those, Justin.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Have you ever I haven't, but peanut butter peanut butter, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Peanut butter, the donkey, yeah. So eventually would like to. I mean, we might have to get another donkey um uh to make this easier, but um, I would eventually like to to sign up and do one of these burrow races that are kind of getting at least I see more of them. They're New Mexico, Colorado. There's one up in Leadville that's pretty well known. And um, so I'm trying to learn more about donkeys and kind of how to handle them and how to run with them. So it was really fun. It was really warm this morning, but I had um got to run with a couple donkeys and we did about four or five miles. And it was it was uh the I think one of the greatest things about running with a donkey is that they kind of go at their pace. So you really have to learn how to be patient and kind of run with them and not force them because if you force them, they don't want to go. It's like a it's it's good for me, I think, in a way, because I just kind of want to go, you know. And when I'm running with them, you have to kind of work with them as like almost a herd. So sometimes they walk, sometimes they run, you know, they don't always run at the pace you want. So it wasn't a it was an experience. I I mean they're they're just lovely, like just sweet, you know, like I love doggies, so it was it was fun. Um so that was a nice day. That was n a nice thing to do today. It made me happy because I was able to get up there and do that and um experience something different, I guess. So that was that was my story for the day. And you were at a race, weren't you, this weekend?

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yeah, this weekend uh we were at the kinetic uh multi sport, it's the Culpepper race. So they had a sprint and an Olympic try-thon race on Saturday. So uh we took the race day coaching tour up to Culpepper, Virginia, um, which is about I say it's about an hour and 45 minutes from from where we live. And we drove, we always drive up like the night before so that we're there during packet pickup. And we've really gotten to know the race director with kinetic multi sports, Greg, is an incredible guy. It's an awesome race organization. We're so blessed to have those guys in our backyard. Um, I've raced quite a few of their races. I have a couple more that uh that I'm about to register for. I have four I have like three days before the the rates increase, and I've been kicking around this idea of of doing these races, and I just hadn't pulled the trigger. I've already committed to like training for them. So I'm like I'm in week three or four of the training plan, but I just have not registered for it. There's something that's just holding me back. But um uh yeah, so we had a really, really good time uh meeting athletes. So if you don't know what the race day coaching tour is, what we do is we I have a big 10 by 10 canopy and a banner that I take up there. It's like you know, new to triathlon, ask a coach. And so what we do is we just set up this booth and we are available for the whole race, uh, especially during the day before during packet pickup. I do uh if that if the race does not have a coaching company sponsor that's already in it, Greg allows me to do a transition clinic. So after they have the athlete briefing, I get the athletes to come down to the canopy and I show them how to set up uh their transition area, just the logistics of what's going to happen the next day. Uh I point them out like where they're going to be going, uh, where they're coming in and out of transition with the different uh disciplines. And I answer any we're answering any last-minute questions. We have really good conversation, actually on race day, where people are coming up either before with super last minute questions or uh right afterwards where they they have some, you know, this is kind of what my race went, and or this is what I've got coming up. What what are your ideas on something? Um this time they I think they were a little short on volunteers, and so we happen to have been set up right by the body marking uh area, which is on on race morning. If you never join a triathlon, what they do is they write your bib number and your are your category. So whether you're racing an age group or if you're in another category like uh Plysdale, Athena, or they have military divisions and college divisions, and uh you get body marked. Uh and so I think they were running low on volunteers and to send the volunteers that they did have out to the bike course, and so a line was forming for body marking. And so I jumped in and asked the lady if she needed some help, and so I got to spend you know 20 to 30 minutes, you know, body marking athletes, and I just I had a blast. It was it was a lot of fun. Um, it's really uh it's it's tiring because I'm an introvert by nature, and so doing these things and being quote unquote on for like 48 hours is a lot to ask of of me. But uh, you know, thankfully my wife ends up driving to and from these events. So I I passed out like as soon as I got in the car to come home, and I slept the whole way home. So it was like a complete navigator failure. And uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

It was yeah, you're lucky to have her support for that.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Yeah, these these things, these these events are so they're they're teaching me how to kind of like step out of my comfort zone and I'm learning to kind of just make myself available to people without trying to sell them a service, you know. I'm not trying to sell myself as a coach. If somebody comes to me and asks, you know, hey, what are your coaching services? Of course I'm going to talk to them about that and you know, and share my philosophy and in hopes that you know they do reach back out. But I'm not trying to sell them a training plan, I'm not trying to sell them anything. I'm just making myself available to them. And so I'm kind of learning, learning how to do that, kind of be a servant. And uh I I feel that that's important. Um, even if it never results in any athletes, you know, turning into to clients or whatever, uh, at least it's helped me become more sociable, more inner, more willing to interact with with others and kind of get over my fear of of just walking up to people and just talking to them. So um it was fantastic. But today I had my long ride. So whenever I have these events, everything is like super compressed. So I spend all week trying to like get ahead of the game in terms of training plans for my athletes, and you know, then my training gets shifted around. So today I ended up having my my long my long ride out there, and uh, so I'm I'm kind of burnt, I'm just tired, you know, kind of run down, and so uh but this is a little bit more busy, you've been a little b busier, like it's just stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

I feel like I've just been just more balancing mom stuff versus, you know, like it hasn't been I don't feel like burnt out, just more so like trying to kind of navigate the summer. Like I think a lot of parents can relate to that if they have small kids is trying to kind of get through the summer before school starts again and you're trying to navigate your work stuff plus your own training and then the heat and then so but yeah, yeah, you're you're more like in a different you've been you know I mean you're doing these races and you've got and that's a lot.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

We're also I'm also a sponsor of a local triathlon club that's here in the area, and so I've been playing a real more active role and getting to meet some of the members and kind of using the same kind of approach and just helping people. Um, I've got uh a bike clinic that I'm gonna be hosting next week, I think, uh, with the club. And so we'll be spending like 60 minutes talking about cycling and racing strategies and training strategies. Uh, then I have a coached swim uh session that I'll be doing in the the very first week in September. So and I've got some more irons in the fire uh for for 2027 already, so kicking around ideas. So it's never a dull moment around here. And I'm supposed to be relaunching my website and completely redoing it on a different platform, and I just can't find the time. Any listeners out there that are that have a skill of building websites, reach out. If you want free coaching, we can set up a barter system. You build my you relaunch my website and I'll coach you for free. Uh and we can we can work that out.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

But um I feel like just help with like get getting like social media or like I don't know, just like certain things about like putting myself out there. Like you're like you're doing, you're kind of like doing that locally by going to races. I guess I could try to figure out a way to do that, you know, with the nutrition piece too. But sometimes just like putting myself out, you know, and trying on like how to like put stuff on social media or like content creation. I feel like that is business, like that's one of the things that in school I did not learn was marketing, business stuff. You learn how, you know, those are all things I feel like I just don't um understand very well. I could use some help with that. But I think for me, it is like a lot have to do with time, you know, finding time to do things. So I can definitely feel what you're saying because I have a lot of great of things I want to do like that, but it's trying to find the time. So delegating it out to someone else, probably something I should do, but also it's hard because there's a cost usually to it. So like building a whole website probably it if you're not doing it yourself, I'm sure there's a pretty good cost to that to hire someone.

SPEAKER_03 12:02

So Yeah, I looked into it and it was like five thousand dollars that was was kind of the the price quote that I that I saw.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Let's jump I guess let's jump into our questions and yeah um let's jump on and try to dive in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Uh let's look at the first one. The first one that I that we got was from Marcus Altman. So he's one of uh he's a guy that I know. Uh we're on Team Zoot together, so we're both on on that team, and he's also a member of the the Richmond Tri-Club uh that I'm a sponsor for. And uh his question great guy, Marcus. So we've shared a couple podiums over the past two years, and so he's a really nice guy. Um so his question is with so many coaches, influencers, YouTube videos uh offering advice and tips, how do you know which is the right advice for you? So thank you, Marcus, uh, for that. Uh Katie, what's what are your thoughts on that one? And then I'll share some of my thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah, I feel like it's hard because I feel like you there is a lot of advice out there, like in YouTube or even just quick blurbs on something like Instagram. Um I think it's hard if you don't have a lot like much background in like endurance sports sometimes to know what somebody's saying, even to be able to like distinguish if it's something that is legit or not, you know what I mean? Or like isn't even right for you. So I think it's I think this is something that can be hard. One thing I will say though, when it comes to anybody posting um online, I think the first I think the first thing you'd want to maybe ask is like what it kind of what are their credentials, you know, because if it is a coach who has a coaching certificate or experience, you know, as a coach or maybe some sort of exercise degree or something like that, I think that gives them more legitimacy than somebody who's just like a run, maybe run influencer that just kind of was like, Oh, I've been running for a couple of years, I'm gonna share my tips or something like that. So, like kind of looking for somebody who has some background or some sort of credential, uh, some sort of something that kind of gives them some legitimacy. And then also like if somebody's saying like this, like this is how you do it, this is how you do it, like you need to do this and you'll be better, or this is the only like if you just follow this formula. Um, I don't know, I'm trying to say this right, but it's like everybody, um, if you can really know how if somebody really knows what they're talking about, if they're explaining it and they're giving you like the nuance of it, or they're giving you some sort of um reasoning behind it, like okay, maybe it was from a research article, or there's some something to kind of to back up what they're saying. It's not just like this is my formula for running a faster race, or did you just do these things? And there's I don't know, like it's sometimes I think you can really trust somebody a little bit more if they actually have a little bit of like nuance like behind what they're saying. I I don't know if that makes sense, but sometimes I feel like people who are very like, this is exactly how you do it, like this is how I ran my marathon and I did these things and this and that, you know, you're gonna be good too if you just do this. And there's no they're very so sure of themselves, and there's no like, well, it might work in this situation, or you know, but I feel like those people I'm a little bit more weary, but unfortunately, I think we tend to gravitate more towards those people who are online who are very, very certain. You know what I mean? Like, this is it, this is how you do it. Or this, you know, it's it's black and white, it's not gonna there's no like nuance to it. Whereas if somebody's online talking about something and they're kind of you know explaining how it, you know, this works, but maybe they're saying, okay, there's a little bit of nuance to it. I don't know if I'm explaining that right, but I think sometimes you can kind of tell right away if somebody who's a YouTuber or something, if they're actually like even giving you information that's kind of credible or that you should take, maybe and use. So I don't know, maybe you have a better way of uh explaining what I just tried to explain because I don't think I did a very good job. I feel like I need an example and I can't think of one.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

I think that there's uh yeah, I think what you're getting at is we we mentioned this, I think, in the last podcast episode, where I classified these people as training plan coaches. Rather than coaching the athlete, they will coach to a formula or a training plan that has been quote unquote uh data supported, science driven, all these little keyword and buzzwords is just something that is supposed to make you buy into their particular method of coaching. Now, just because they've had success with a particular process or method does not mean it it should be considered a universal process and that if you just it's not plug and play where you just you can just kind of go in and and execute that that particular plan and you should expect similar results. I don't think it works that way. Um if that were the case, then we would all be successful because there's a lot of different plans that are out there that we've seen good results. You can always tell when somebody's trying to BS their way through uh through a topic. So I mean, I remember as a kid, you can you can always like kind of like when you read a paper for somebody, like a book report paper that you didn't read the book, as a teacher, you can sit there and read that, you can tell this kid did not read this book. I I know it. They're just they're just BSing their way through it. And I think it's we should be able to pick up on that pretty easily when we see stuff on social media and YouTube.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

I think so, but I do I do think sometimes people want, I don't know, like the easy like an easier formula sometimes. And I think when people come on social media and are like very sure of themselves, yeah, there's almost like there's a word for it where somebody just has enough information and that the the influencer themselves may actually be pretty sure of themselves because they just have enough information. This is how I was in graduate school when I was studying nutrition, I thought I was like the expert. I'm like, oh my gosh, as I was learning nutrition, at first when I started to learn it, I thought I knew everything. But then once I learned more and more and more about different aspects of nutrition for different diseases and different things, I realized it was like actually I don't know everything. But there was a point in time when I, when I was just starting out, even like as even like just going through grad school and like learning these topics, like my gosh, I am the S-I-S-H-I-T. You know what I mean? Like I I know everything. Like, and then it's like there's a cusp that I kind of had to go over of like, oh, wait a second. Oh no, I don't know everything. You know, like there's so much that I still have to learn, and I know a lot, but I don't know everything. And so I think that happens a lot. You know, you you s this is where nutrition can be kind of dangerous itself, like nutrition topics or training, because you just learn a little bit about something, or you just learn a little bit about training concepts, or a little, or you have a couple of years of experience and you think you know you oh well, I'm like, I know a lot. And I think people then come across sometimes on these YouTube or you know, on these channels and are like very sure of themselves because they probably do think they they're right, or they think that they um what they have to say is um and maybe they have some truth to it, like maybe they it does, but they haven't had enough experience with it or they haven't learned enough about training or about nutrition and know the nuance yet. So they come off very sure of themselves. And I think that people gravitate towards that because they want to have somebody that's like, oh, well, they seem they sound like they know what they're talking about. Whereas if you're listening to people that um have a lot more background, there's you'll kind of you can sense it when they're talking, like this is the case, but you know, in these certain circumstances, you know, or that you know, they'll be able to kind of talk more about like, well, this is a great training concept, but it may not work for these types of individuals, or it's not they're not so, so like sure, like this is absolutely the truth and there's no other possibility. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 20:44

It's definitely dangerous if if this person is coming and saying this is the process that works. Um if if they seem pretty sure that you know, hey, if if you just do this, then you'll get the result that you're looking for. If the person isn't asking follow-up questions, then that should be a red flag uh in terms of of their legitimacy.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

They're just like it's like blanket statements like this is gonna work for everyone, this is how it this works. Like for nutrition, it's kind of like those statements of like everybody should be following this diet. There, you know, or like this is gonna work for everyone. There's no like nuance or you know, the keto diet is like the best diet. You know, there's no like, I don't know, like it's that that so sure-ness of what they're saying of like, oh well, but you know, actually that's probably not the best diet for for some people, or it may be okay for some, but these people probab there's people that probably wouldn't benefit from that, and you know, that sort of discussion of the nuance. It's like very, very sure of this is how you do it, and you know, this is gonna work for everyone. Kind of that sort of language. And I wish I had more of a way to articulate that.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

I mean, uh you you talk you you mentioned something about the certifications and I d I do want to say that I've I've talked with a lot of certified coaches that are crap. So I mean their certifications, I think to a certain extent, do provide some some level of credibility, but if they're still coming across as, you know, this is what you should be doing, this is what you this is all you need to do, then their certification is nothing more than just a piece of paper at that point in time. So you have what I call like theoretical coaches, which are coaching to the textbook versus a tactician who is applic is is taking the knowledge and applying it to a particular athlete's situation or scenario or circumstances, and all circumstances are different. So there's more than one way to train to get to the same result. So if somebody's telling you that this is the way to do it, then there should be a red flag right off the bat. My my advice to to Marcus is this there's nothing wrong with experimentation. So if you hear something that is coming from from another coach or an influencer or a YouTube video, Marcus is a pretty smart guy. So I would say, you know, use a little bit of your discernment when it comes to does this jive with with stuff that I've kind of heard before? Are there maybe some nuances to this that maybe is a little bit different than what other people are saying? So if it kind of goes in the same direction as as other approaches, then that lends some credibility to the process. But uh there's nothing wrong with you taking that approach and just trying it and see if it does work for you because I don't think that you can get advice from from a YouTuber or another coach or an influencer and already have some kind of level of assuredness or certainty that it's right for you, uh, unless you try and implement it. And you know, just give yourself a time frame. Say, hey, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try this method for for 30 days. And all it's gonna cost you is potentially 30 days. I mean, if they're gonna say, you know, hey, if you've never run a day in your life, but we want, you know, this approach is now has you running six days a week, then yeah, I think your discernment should should already flag you. It's like, okay, that that doesn't sound right. Um, but to a certain extent, I think that you can say, okay, I'll I'll try this for 15 to 30 days. And if it's working, then I'll then I'll say that worked for me. It may not work for for somebody else, but it may be good for you. Um, one conversation that I had this weekend with another athlete was that she was saying that she was kind of new to swimming, and so she's been watching YouTube videos and all this kind of stuff about swimming. And I said, uh, I think that's a great approach uh to educate yourself, but I want to lend a little piece of caution that if you're watching YouTube videos from professional swimmers, like these people are Olympians, uh national champions, I want you to keep in mind these people have been swimming probably their entire life. So if you're an adult onset swimmer and you're trying to replicate what these people are telling you to do, it's going to require a little bit of patience. You're not going to be able to just execute this, you know, right off the bat and all of a sudden become a great swimmer. These people have been honing their craft for for a really long time. So I want you to keep that in mind. When you're watching, you know, the this content. And it's like, okay, how long has this person been doing this? You know, is should should it look that easy? And if it doesn't, if it's not that easy when you try and implement it, then that kind of tells you something that, okay, well, maybe they had they had maybe just an innate ability. You know, they may have had some genetics that made them that made them really, really good at this approach. I may not be very good at this approach, or I may have some limitations that keep me from executing what this person is saying. It doesn't mean that it's bad advice. It was just bad, it was just not suitable for you. So that's my advice is that there's don't be afraid to try it, but put a limit on it and just say, okay, if it's not working, it's not working.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yeah. I think too, like it kind of goes along that same, but we can kind of move on to the next one. But I just want to say, like, I watch a lot of YouTube videos of elite athletes and their training because it's fascinating to me what they're doing. I just more interested in like, wow, that's like following along. When it comes to what they're doing for training, I know, you know, that I cannot do exactly what they're doing because they're running 130 miles, 140 miles a week. And that I would be unable to do. So like I think it's it's great, like watching things and kind of maybe getting some advice and tips, but realizing that an elite athlete is a top marathon runner, is in a totally different situation. And they probably have they're relatively young and have the experience as an elite marathoner, but they haven't had a lot of other lived experience of maybe also, you know, having a job and kids, some of them have kids, but you know, that kind of stuff. So like just watching it is fine, but just know that, you know, whatever their training is, you're not likely going to be able to replicate and have the same outcome. So just being able to like watch, yeah, like watching it, getting some ideas for workouts, maybe just kind of being interested in their tips and things they're talking about, but realizing that like just kind of keeping that in mind when you're looking at things. Like what, what are these, where is this information coming from? What is the experience this person has? And does it kind of translate to what I'm like my lived, like what's going on with me right now? Are you a master's runner? Are you someone who has a full-time job? Like, you're probably not going to be able to replicate what some of these people are doing or even saying. And a lot of I don't really find that the elite runners I'm following on YouTube are like telling people to do things. I think that's just like you see the workouts they're doing. And I think I've kind of run into a lot of people who are like trying to replicate that. And it's like it's you can't because they're on it, you know, they're different tier of athlete. There's a different level there. So you it's interesting, you might be able to get some things from it, but don't take everything and try to replicate exactly what someone's doing on YouTube or whatever, too. So that's one of the kind of along the thing with the swimming, because you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

I think Yeah, there's a there's a particular swimmer, there's a swimmer that I follow on social media who is who's an accomplished swimmer. I mean, he was n he was on a national team. I don't I don't prescribe to oh, I don't agree with his method of of coaching and the way that he's encouraging people to swim. Doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means that I don't prescribe to that. And I think that there are some some uh holes that may not make what he's doing uh relevant or applicable to triathletes. It might be rep it might be applicable to swimmers, but I I don't I don't necessarily agree with his method. But there's another swimmer that I follow who is of the same caliber that I do prescribe to the way that he coaches and the way that his explanations are for for different different things that we want to work on as a swimmer, and I agree with a lot of what he says, and so I think that there comes a time where you build some level of trust with somebody, even though you may not know them, because you've have found that there's a a collection of knowledge that is coming from that person that you tend to agree with is consistent with with other literature or other other forms of instruction. He's not they're not the only one that is preaching this particular method. That should be a pretty big red flag. If they're the only one that's describing that this is the training approach that works, then there that might be a little bit of a caution, cautionary red flag. But you start to you start to weed out the people that you're just like, I don't I don't necessarily trust that guy. Doesn't mean that he's wrong. I just I there's something about it where it just doesn't sit right. And so you move on to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

So I would just, yeah, I would just like caution people to taking what they see and just I uh I'm the kind of person that watches stuff and then I kind of have to like I'm not sure. I don't know about this person. I'm gonna watch a few more videos, I'm gonna get feel this out a little bit before I'm like, oh yeah, well, I'm gonna take what they're saying. So I think just using that little bit of caution, really kind of like giving yourself some time to listen to more of what they have to say, like listen to other videos, like what else are they putting out there and before you kind of decide, okay, I'm gonna try that, you know. So and I don't think I think you're right, like just trying out um a different training method, you know, like, you know, okay, I'm gonna try this double threshold thing. Like what, you know, like let me, you know, that's a popular one. Like, I'm gonna try this out for 30 days or I'm gonna do this once a week, I don't know, for a certain amount of time and see if it's actually helping, you know, because that's the fun thing about training is you can try as long as it's not something kind of crazy that's gonna get you injured, you can try different things and see if it's helping or not. So yeah, you know, um, but don't don't prescribe to something and then continue doing it if it's not working and you try something different. Yeah. Um, let's go to the next question.

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Yeah. Do you want to um okay? So I can read it. Yeah, do you want me to read or do you um I'm just gonna read the first part of it because it's it's a little bit it's a little wordy, but um she was trying to to illustrate what it was that she was saying she was saying, but I th I think I understand. But this is from N Nicole Urbansky. Uh she is another friend of mine from from Team Zoot, and uh you know Nicole, Katie. Um as we're recording this episode, I want to give a shout-out to Nicole. She is Kona bound, and uh today she raced Iron Man Maine 70.3, had a fantastic day. So congratulations, Nicole, on on a well-executed race, uh, job well done. But uh Nicole's question was Does your race effort dictate your training efforts, or does the training dictate the race effort? And I I think that this is a really, really interesting question. What what she's kind of getting at is if you have a particular level that you want to race at, do you say, okay, well, clearly it's it's not reasonable for me to be able to execute that race effort today because there would be no point in training, right? So you say, okay, I'm gonna say whatever that level is, I'm going to do some uh percentage of it. Let's say, and she said, let's say 70%. So uh you take 70% of your race day goal, and that's where you start your training plan at. And then you try and build build up from that to where you can then eventually on race day, when you peak, you should be able to peak at that at that goal effort. Or uh do you create uh a plan based on where you are right now and you just keep bumping up the intensity and and and the volume, and then on race day, you execute wherever it is that your fitness is at now on race day. And it kind of goes into the face of well, should we go into race day with race day goals that we formulate at the beginning of the training cycle, or do we sit back and ask ourselves, well, how did training go? How consistent was I? How was my performance during training? Now, can I form race day expectations given the information that I've accumulated over this training plan? And what can I expect to execute on race day? For me and and my approach, uh, the way that I do my own personal racing and kind of the way that I approach with athletes, I'm in the second category. Um, I I know I I do ask athletes, hey, what what are your goals and and things like that? And I try my best to get them to where where their goal is, but there's things get in the way of that sometimes. And so I'm more inclined to say, okay, let's just evaluate where we are, and we're going to work hard. Um and come race day, the work that we put in is what we have access to, and that's going to effectively tell us how we should be racing. Because you can have that goal of some X number, and you started at some lower level of that training could have gone really, really well. And I think it opens you up to the possibility that you may be chasing performance on race day that may not be possible given things that are outside of your control, um, you know, weather conditions, uh, other racers, you know, a crowded swim can affect your ability to swim in clean water. And all of a sudden now your performance suffered because you know you had to fight a crowd where you're not used to it, or you didn't take that into consideration when you were forming your goal. And now all of a sudden you're already behind the eight ball and you're only into the first discipline. And it kind of can snowball from there because then I've seen people say, Now I'm behind the eight-ball. So that means I need to go a little bit harder on the bike to make up time. And now you've overbiked, and what you've done is you've sabotaged your run. So I think I'm more inclined to go with the second approach. We start where we are, we take that, we take our fitness right now, and we keep bumping up, just a little bumping up in a conservative, methodical way throughout the plan. As long as you have like a path forward and you're not just like randomly bumping things up. You know, it's like, okay, well, if I increase this week over this week and this week over this week, okay, I'm gonna roll back this week. You have to be a little, you have to put some forethought into it. So we're not going into it just saying race day is whatever it is. We're we're we're methodical about it, but I don't I'm not chasing performance 16 weeks before you know the race even takes place. But I I think that that there's a nuance to that. It can be a little bit of both. I think it depends on the situation. Like if you if you want a Boston qualifying race, then that first method is probably more appropriate because you're you're you have to have some kind of level of performance in order to get that Boston qualifying time.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

I mean, I feel like it's has a lot to do with like um like it kind of has to do with like your you know what you're cap kind of what you're capable of. Like if you know, like in this case for me, like with my goal that I had for the marathon, was I know I'm capable of at least this particular time because I've achieved it before fairly recently. So when I'm formulating my training plan, I am like formulating it kind of based off of some sort of pace. It may not be like I'm obviously not fit enough to get that when I start the training plan, but I'm like kind of keeping that in mind as I'm building it. Um, you know, I think if you if you're like, well, I want to achieve like a Boston qualifying time, but it's like kind of really ambitious. I don't know, you know, like if it's like something that's kind of not within what you know you're maybe capable of, that might be a different story. Like you're like shooting for something way faster because you're just like, all right, I know I'm gonna try to run like a sub three, but I've only done a 330 or four-hour marathon, and I'm just gonna train to this time. Like that's not gonna work. You know what I mean? Like you're like, oh, well, I'm gonna train these paces until I can make it work. I mean, you kind of like you can't really do that, but you so you first of all have to kind of know it's your goal if you're going to have it be like you're setting a goal for a time or something like that. You have to know you're capable of it, and then maybe you can train to it, but I think you also have to let the training dictate the race. Like in my case, you know, we talked about this with the grandmas. Like maybe at some point I didn't really do that. I was trying to, as I was kind of recovering from my illness, I was trying to force this pace because I wanted this outcome. And maybe I shouldn't should have kind of at that point let the training, you know, happen and just kind of seen how the race was gonna go. I don't know, but like there may be certain times when you realize like, okay, I'm just kind of it's like a melding of both of those in a way. My answer is like maybe it's some sort of art art of both of those things as you're going through the training. And if you kind of, you know, you have to, I feel like you have to have some some kind of goal, maybe. I mean, I don't guess you don't have to. I mean, you don't have to have, you could go into it and just say, like, whatever's gonna be is gonna be, right? But I think most people go into a race and they have some sort of goals. If you're hitting those goals, you have to kind of like, as you're creating the plan, like, yeah, you're not gonna be, you're gonna be doing it in such a way that maybe you're starting out with some volume and then you're like adding in, you know, a little more speed and you're you're building yourself up. You're kind of molding yourself into the shape that you want to be at to race that time or something, but you're not you I don't think the whole time you are you have to like force yourself into that sort of mold, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

I would make a case for is that sometimes if you set this goal, what happens if you could perform beyond that? But you don't because you know you've trained to that to that performance expectation, but you're capable of so much more. So one of the ways that that I implemented my training for like the past like year and a half is that I completely disregard I did not make any race day goals at the beginning of the training plan. So what I said was I don't formulate my goal until the week of the race. And then I'll sit down and I'll say, okay, how did how did how did training go? This is kind of what I what I would like to do. This is kind of what I expect I should be able to, and this is what I would do if I'm having a really bad day. So I have I have bad day, decent day, rock star day. So those are my three, my three levels of performance for for each of those. And I just race to my to to my potential. I just go out and say, okay, this is what I have today. Let's go out and just give it all that I've got and not try and just race to a particular goal, because I may have been bad at setting that goal, and I may race uh beyond that expectation. But if I race to the expectation, then I'm leaving performance on the table. And part of it, I think, stems from, you know, if if I'm working with an athlete and they're like, you know, I want to qualify for, you know, 70.3 worlds or I want a Kona slot, you know, I I think that there is a particular method to get you there, but ultimately those results are dictated by who shows up that day. Because we could formulate what should be able to get you a qualifying slot doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to be good enough that day. Because if you have a bunch of really tough hardcore athletes show up that day and they just blow the roof off of the race, you're like, well, you know, normally that would have gotten me a slot, but you know, slots are based off of like how you place, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah, it's it's all relative to where you are. So that's a tough one because you could have that be your goal, but yeah, like then you have to be able that one's a harder one to maybe train for because you don't know who's showing up, whereas the time goal is different. But I agree with you. I think it's it's hard because you don't want to limit yourself to like maybe if you have more potential, but I think you do have to have some idea as you're going into it, whether you're formulating that kind of in the beginning and you're sort of training to that goal time, or you're sort of coming to that at the end of the training plan. And arguably you should be kind of doing this all throughout, you know, sort of base doing the training based off of effort. You know, you're uh like you don't want to like if you're pushing yourself too hard during your training sessions to try to hit a pace, then you're going to be in trouble. So, you know, arguably you should be a little bit cautious to be like, well, uh in order to hit this time, I need to be hitting these paces, you know, 16 weeks out. And if that's pace is incredibly challenging and you're finding that you're going way above your lactate threshold on a run or a re or a training session, you're supposed to be like under that, or you know, you're you're sort of pushing yourself too hard, then that's going to be problematic. So you kind of have to be, you know, going based off of effort and then maybe checking in a little bit with yourself along the way to kind of see your paces are and how you're progressing. Um, but I do think at the same token, if like if you are now like, wow, I'm actually doing really great, like I'm I'm surpassing some of these expectations I had for where I should be at, you know, you do want to maybe check in with yourself periodically throughout the whole process to kind of see how things are going. Um, because it shouldn't be like you're so focused on this one goal, which I know, you know, sometimes I've been guilty of where you kind of lose that, you know, you're you're so focused on hitting these specific times that you know you need to hit for these workouts in order to get this time that you want, that you're kind of losing sight either way. Either you're not fit enough or you're not hitting those goals. You know, it's too hard, the ch the workouts are too difficult, um, and you're putting your heart rate too high or something, or on the other side, they're too easy, but you're like, well, these are the times I have to hit in order to get this time, but you're maybe leaving uh you're not realizing that you're actually exceeded your fitness and maybe you're capable of so much more. So I do think either way, I mean, it's that's why I kind of say it's both, because unless you really are just wanting to go into it and you have no idea like what your goal is gonna be, I think it's helpful to have some idea like of what you want to accomplish, but then along the way you have to kind of check in with yourself a little bit and um and make sure you're not um either pushing too hard to hit some sort of goal or not hard enough, like you're saying. It's like a little bit of an art to try to figure that out, I think sometimes, but you have to maybe have a little melding of both the race um dictating the training and then the training dictating the race. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 44:56

I think it can shift. So I think it can shift. So when you when you create the training plan, it's like, you know, uh for her example, it's like okay, well, this is the performance that that I want. So this is the volume that I need. And so you set that as the path for the training plan. But then when it gets closer and closer to race day, you evaluate how that training went.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Evaluating it.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

And then you kind of say, okay, now given given the training, this is what I can expect to race at, knowing that they may not be the same then as what you set at the beginning. So so I I think for Nicole, I think I think you're right, Katie. It can be a little bit of both. I don't know. It's like when I'm when I'm sitting there thinking about it, it's like I did, you know, when I set the path for for my for a training plan, I have some level of volume that I have in mind. So I was like, okay, well, if I'm doing if I have an athlete that's doing a 70.3, uh, I know that I want their uh bike volume to be about three hours. Three hours, I think, is like where I want them to be, like when we start to really like ramp things up. So then I say, okay, well, then I'm going to say I'm gonna take 45% of that and then add that, add that to the three hours. So we're gonna overtrain on the bike. So I do have like some kind of formulation on what I would like to see on race day, but I also have to weigh that. It's like, okay, where are they now? Can I even get them close to three hours?

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Yeah, is it possible to get there?

SPEAKER_03 46:26

That may not be possible, in which case, then I have to tell the athlete, well, the way that we're going to do this training for this race is the second approach, where the training that we do is going to dictate what the race effort is. Because I'm not quite sure you have the fitness now that allows us to progress in our in a responsible way to get you to that performance expectation, but it doesn't mean that we're not going to work hard and going to execute a solid race. Now, if I have an athlete who says, you know, I want to, I want to, I want to go sub three on a 70.3 bike, I'm already riding two and a half hours as my long ride, then I say, okay, now this is this is reasonable. You have the current volume that supports that goal. And so it's a little bit easier to use that first approach where we say, okay, now we can use you know this and just ramp it up to get you where it is that we want you to be. But it's really athlete specific, it's scenario dependent. Um but I think that there's uh there's uh reasons and nuances for for both approaches. So I don't think one is uh better over the other, they're just dependent. So uh number three. So we have a third question here is and uh I'll admit this one was from me. And the reason it was for me is because I saw this post on a social media and I know I know it was clickbait, and uh so I thought I would I would raise it up to here. It says, How much of your training should and can be done on a trainer or a treadmill and still be prepared for a race? Yeah. What are your thoughts, Kate?

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah, I feel like there's I I think like I mean, I was listening to something the other day about a gentleman who was training, I think he lived in Canada and he did a spring race, and almost all of his training was done on a treadmill and he ran like a 209 or something marathon. So I think, you know, I feel like there's a lot of debate. You'll have to kind of hit talk about the trainer specifically because I think with the bike, maybe there's a little more nuance to being able to like handle your bike on the road a little bit. Like maybe there's you you probably want to do some level of that to be prepared. But and also maybe you know, the treadmill of the surface is a little a little different. So I think doing some running on the road is probably helpful just to be prepared for the surface itself. But in terms of like developing fitness and doing workouts, like if if all you have is a treadmill and it's you know impossible to run outside because of the heat or the cold, I think you can do most of your running on a treadmill and be able to race just fine. In fact, um, I think a lot of people have a lot of success doing quite a bit of their running on a treadmill. I mean, I personally like to be outside because I just like to run outside, but I do run on my treadmill, you know, in the heat or in the cold because I'm sorry, I just don't want to be freezing or out in 110 degrees or something. So, but you know, you hear, I feel like this is something on social media people like to attack people who run or train, you know what I mean? And I like no, if you run a treadmill, it is a run. It's like a legitimate thing. It helped it can be a great tool. So um I don't that drives me crazy when I see this. And I think that John, I wish I could remember the name of the marathoner because I was listening to another podcast and he had done majority of his training um on a treadmill, and he did very well. So I think you can I think it was like at a I honestly think he said it was like at one of those like 24-hour fitness or planet fitness also. So it wasn't even like a fancy treadmill, probably. You know, one of those Woodward ones or some, I don't know, some uh like one of those Nordic track or I don't know, those $5,000 treadmills. I feel like you know, you can get the work if whatever allows you to get the work done and get fit will help you.

SPEAKER_03 50:20

So this is this is my argument. I think that there is a time and a place for for both. Um both are important components to an overall well-rounded training plan. Now, uh let's approach this from the bike perspective. Um I use the trainer a lot, but I also ride outside a lot. So the reason behind this guy's post that he made on social media is that he was saying that the vast majority of your training, almost all of your training, should be outside. And I don't agree with that. The reason that I don't agree with that is because it's really hard to do structured, focused, purposeful work outside. Um, especially if you're dealing with a terrain that doesn't allow you to execute a desired intensity for a specific duration, not like you can on a trainer. So I think when it comes to those types of workouts, it is completely reasonable and actually preferred that you do them on a trainer. We can do very specific muscle targeting skill development work on the trainer. It's valuable. Now, that does not mean that all of your training should be done on a trainer plugged into Zwift and you're just riding with your friends on a vit what's effectively a video game. All right. Because there are valuable skills that yeah, it can be fun and engaging, but there are skills that you do not get a chance to develop, like uh feeding, you know, taking in, reaching down and grabbing your water bottle while your bike is moving, or trying to eat a gel while you're in arrow position flying down the road is not replicable on a trainer. Uh it's not, you don't get the the skill development of what it's like to ride in the wind. You know, if you have deep set carbon wheels and you get crosswinds, you need to learn how to shift your weight in such a way that keeps you upright and keeps you stable. Also learning how to hold a line and you know, not necessarily riding in a group, because with triathlon, we don't ride in groups, you know, there are rules against that, but being able to hold a line and not be swerving all over the road is a valuable skill that you must. Or if there's like a pothole, like learning how to like maneuver, learning how to read the road where you're at, and so just not zoning out. Those those things must be done like outside. So those are skills. So I would say maybe your long stuff can be done outside if the conditions allow it. There's nothing I've done my long rides on a trainer where you know it was raining outside or uh I just did not have the time in my schedule to allow me to drive to wherever it is I needed to go uh to ride. But I think that there should be some subset of your of your training that does take place outside in order to learn those skills and become comfortable on a bike. So I think that there's a time and like I said, there's a time and place for both. And for the treadmill specifically, I love the treadmill. And I I work with athletes that absolutely hate the treadmill because they want to be entertained. They're they're like, I'm bored. Uh, and it just reminds me of like a little kid that walks into the room and then they're on summer break, and it's our they've only been on summer break for like a day and they're kicking and screaming, they're like, I'm bored, entertain me. That's the picture that I get in my head. Because I I love I love the treadmill because it allows me to do very specific focused work. And if that means that, hey, I want to do some some strength conditioning runs, I have direct access and control over the elevation of the treadmill. I can dial in the intensity like I want or like I need to. Uh when it comes to doing speed work, I have, you know, I can teach my body what it feels like to run at those paces. So that way when I get outside on the road, I can execute that just as effectively because I know what it feels like. And I'm not like tied to my watch to confirm that I'm running that kind of pace. For me specifically, the demands of running outside on the road would be such that I can't run consistently. Um, with the condition of like, you know, my Achilles and my ankles, just running on the road is just really beats me up compared to running on a treadmill. Does that mean that all of my runs are on a treadmill? No. Um, I do a couple, I do some of my runs outside when when it when it calls for it, but I would say probably 80% of my run training is on the treadmill. And I have vastly exceeded my run performance and my races over the past two years. So the treadmill is effective as long as you're purposeful with it with it.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, like and I think it's great for like you said, yeah, pacing, like putting it in and pace and being able to keep a pace. You don't have to watch, you know, keep an eye on your watch every time, or if you're setting it, it's kind of nice in that way. You can kind of set the workout up that and you kind of learn. And it maybe is a helpful tool to learn different pacing. That makes sense, because you're setting it on the treadmill. So um, yeah, and it's I mean, it can be a very effective and like I think the hard thing is like mimicking on a treadmill, maybe mimicking terrain that you might encounter. So, like up, you know, you have to almost be intentional about changing the incline a little bit or like doing some up uphill hill work. Otherwise, it's all kind of on a flat surface. So, you know, you have to be a little bit intentional on how you set the treadmill up and how you go about it to be able to kind of mimic a little more of what you might encounter, generally being outside where there may be a little bit of uphills and downhills. But I think, I mean, downhills are a little harder if your treadmill doesn't do that. I do think you have to, I mean, it's helpful to do some outside running if you're going to be doing a race outside. And I really think it depends on like the person. Like, you love the treadmill. I don't, I don't like dislike it. I just don't want to do most of my training on it because I like to be outside. I like the fresh air. I get a lot more out of being outside because it's like I want to be in nature. There's like other benefits I'm getting from being outside. So it's not that I'm necessarily bored. I just like on the treadmill, it's just that I like to be outside because I like to experience nature and see things and have the birds and things flying by. But um, it's really individual. And I think to like villainize people who use more tread do more treadmill in their training is that I don't I don't understand that concept, like, oh, you're not a real runner or some sort of it drives me crazy. It's it's whatever works for you to get your training in, we're all out there doing our runs, and if it, you know, if it's helping you and you're getting something out of it, and I do think it's a very effective tool. Yeah, and I do, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's even like those lever systems where people can offload a little bit of the weight, and uh, you know, if they're injury prone, I mean there's a lot of benefits to it. So go ahead, use your treadmill. But if you have an outside race, you know, so either biking or um obviously most races are outside. I don't I'm assuming you know, there's maybe maybe there are treadmill races out there, but um training is a little bit outside to get some of that, like you're saying. But yeah, I hope that I think we kind of covered that one pretty well.

SPEAKER_03 57:50

All right. So the next one uh is from Anonymous. And so uh less this is going to be a nutrition one. And so the question becomes how do you calculate your nutrition? And this is like carb and calorie, but I think it's more carb carb than it is anything else. We don't really we don't r we've never really talked about calorie targeting uh no, we haven't. I'm not a lot.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

I mean, we mentioned it a little bit in our weight, like loss.

SPEAKER_03 58:18

I mean, cal calories calories aren't created equal, so I I'm not quite sure if that's something that's so it's like asking how do you calculate your nutrition for training?

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

So how do you calculate your carb needs for training and racing?

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Yeah. So this is how the only way to get any of this absolutely accurately 100% correct is if I were to put you in like a little box and measure, like have you do all your training in the box and measure all your oxygen consumption and your CO2 output and do, you know what I mean, those types of calculations to get your calories, and then somehow I'd have to figure out all with this, like how much percentage of carb versus fat you're burning for, you know, like it's you could see how it to get this a hundred percent correct where it's spot on would be complicated and involve a lot of expensive equipment. So the rays the way I sort of do it is I'll generally calculate someone's basal metabolic rate, um, and then add in some sort of activity factor, like let's say outside of training, you're sedentary. So maybe it's like I'm just multiplying that by 1.2 to get some sort of basal rate of calories. And then based off the training, it's kind of adding on the calories that you would expend during your training. And sometimes, like because you're, you know, the the there might be a little bit of nuance there, but it's like, let's say your basal rate just for the get through the day, not your basal metabolic rate, but just what you need to just get through the day is like 1800, but you run, you know, like an hour at a certain intensity. If it's a lower intensity, you know, maybe you're burning 500 calories versus like a higher intensity, it might be six or seven hundred. Then I would be adding like that, you know, hour long run, the the energy to that to kind of get an idea. It's a ballpark, right? Like I'm using equations. None of this is a hundred percent correct. So this is why it's helpful to work with someone who can kind of like help figure this out for you and then be able to adjust it based off of different factors, weight, how you're feeling, how you're rate running, you know, everything kind of is going. But then what I do is I kind of take the basically your protein needs are gonna be pretty much the same day to day. They don't go up significantly on a high training volume day. So it may a little bit, but maybe like maybe it's 0.8 to 1 grams per pound, roughly. You know, the that's just a rough that's gonna stay pretty much the same. And same with fat. You know, fat might be 20 to 30 percent of your total calories, but the fat the grams aren't gonna change drastically. Um, it maybe in this example, it's something like 60 to 80 grams fat. It kind of stays the same. It goes up a little bit the higher the more calories you burn, just because we're gonna eat more fat in general as we need to get more calories. But the biggest shift, the biggest change day to day is going to be carbs. That's gonna be, I mean, it could be as low as on an 1800 calorie day for this individual, it could be as low as 150 grams on that day. But maybe they're doing a two-hour ride or a two-hour run, and that day it could be three or four hundred grams. So the biggest change, you know, the biggest thing you're gonna be really adding in to get those extra calories is going to be mostly carb. I think by calculating your calorie needs and then your needs for protein and fat, you can then kind of the remainder will come from carbs. And on a really high calorie burning day, the carbs are gonna be much higher than a lower calorie burning day, if that makes sense. The more energy the more energy you expend, the more of that's coming from carb. So, you know, it's it's it's hard because you know, I'd have to like write out all the equations and you can maybe figure this out yourself, but even like the timing of how those carbs are consumed are gonna be important. Like if you have a big training ride in the morning, but you and you don't eat any carbs and you just decide you're gonna do a fasted two-hour ride, and then all 400 carb grams of carbs are coming in right before bed, that's gonna be not helpful. That's not a good distribution. So it's really a bit nuanced, but that's kind of how I think about it. Um I don't do it based off percentages. Uh I generally don't calculate, like, you know, how my fitness pal does it, like 20%, you know, protein, 30% fat, and then the remainder's 50% coming from carb. Because obviously, like if you have a 4,000 calorie day, like the protein and the fat are going to be really high in that percentage-based your protein needs are pretty set day to day. They might go up a little bit when you're training more, but not a whole lot. So I actually do calculate that differently. Then that's why I don't really love like my fitness pal and some of those trackers, because they're cal the way they're calculating it isn't, I think, helpful for athletes. The way I calculate it is different. So I know that's really complicated. I hope I just I probably just confused everyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:17

I think that was a good thing. Well, we can take all that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

No, no, no. It's fine. I think that's just valuable information because that kind of stuff, that stuff still supports our ability to train. Yeah. So let's say that you you have an athlete that comes to you. How do you do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

Let's say in that scenario where you're calculating all your needs and those carbs, you've kind of come to this conclusion, like, okay, I need 400 grams of carbs a day. Like, majority of those carbs are going to come around like your training, you know what I mean? Like you're you're now calculated your daily carb needs. So it I think this kind of does come into play here because you know exactly how many carbs you need to maybe support that level of training. But then you're kind of then you're thinking about how is it, how are you calculating it for before, during, and after. So you're kind of taking that carb allotment and thinking, okay, um, I need to make sure I'm getting a a good amount in before and after. You know, maybe if you have 400 gram day, you're kind of thinking, okay, I probably need to get like 75 or something before and after. I need to get 60 grams an hour. And then it comes down to, I mean, the carbs that you're taking in for your like during training kind of depends on how well you've trained your gut, like how well you're able to take in carbs and how long the duration is.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

So it kind of comes back to So how how do you how do you set that? How do you set that amount? With with the popularization of of these high carbs, you know, trying to get in 100 grams, 100 grams of carbs, 130 grams of carbs. But I mean, that's not reasonable for for everybody. So look, is is your carb intake going to be a function of whether you're a larger athlete, a smaller athlete? Like if I'm working with somebody who is like a hundred and thirty pounds, I I'm not going to make them try and consume 60 grams of carbs an hour. Versus if I'm working somebody with somebody who's 220, maybe they need 70 to 80 grams of carbs. So how how do you how do you set that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:20

I mean, it will, it would be like a little bit dictated based off of weight. Um, the way I would say is like most people would probably benefit from at least 60 grams of carbs an hour, no matter what their weight is. Um but somebody like myself might be okay with because I'm a lighter athlete, six, I could kind of stay in that 60 to 70 gram range where maybe if somebody's burning more, but it is really kind of based off of how much we can actually digest, absorb, and utilize. And unfortunately, you and I aren't that different in that. Just because maybe I'm a smaller athlete doesn't mean I'm able to actually digest and take. Take those carbs and and use them quicker than or less quick than you. Does that make sense? So it's not necessarily like this isn't necess this particular question isn't necessarily weight based or athlete size based. Obviously, someone maybe has a bigger gut potentially, but um, so there are certain aspects of it. It's more to do with how quickly you can train your your train your gut to like utilize, digest, and actually take those carbs and put them into the energy system, if that makes sense. What I'm trying to say there is it it, yes, maybe your calories that you burn are gonna be higher, your demands are higher. You if you if a larger athlete could get themselves to be able to digest and utilize and actually get used to eating more carbs, it probably would help them better. But it's not, it's going you, you know, just because I need 60 doesn't mean that you need you can handle 120. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Because the limitation is between all of us, that's just your ability to that's your ability to absorb it. So yeah, I I get that point. The one calculation that I've seen that I've actually started using is uh I take my body weight in pounds and I convert that to kilograms. So I take my body weight and divide it by 2.205. And then my carbs per hour is going to be your body weight in kilograms multiplied by 0.6. And that's kind of the the floor or the foundation in which we say this is where we need that's like the minimum that we should be trying to get to. If you're not there yet, then we have to train the gut to at least get us to there. So if I'm looking at an athlete who is 130 pounds, based on that calculation, they should be only bringing they should really need maybe 35 grams of carbs an hour. Versus somebody who's like me, who's heavier than that, I need like close to 70. I haven't trained my gut to take in 70, but I'm working towards that. But if I take that same athlete and tell them that I want them to start taking in 60 grams of carbs an hour, I'm actually giving, I'm trying to get them to consume double the carbs than what they really should need on the on the foundation. Do you Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

Does that make sense? No, I disagree. I think because like a hundred some someone like I'm probably would, if you calculated that out, probably pretty close to that 35 or 40 grams an hour. But I'm the rate in which I'm burning carbs is probably like much higher than that. I would actually most athletes would benefit from trying to get as much as they can possibly take in, no matter what their size. So I'd be really hesitant to use a calculation like that and tell a smaller athlete, oh, you only need 35 grams of carbs. That's just not enough, even for because I'm still we're still burning a lot of energy, especially if that athlete is really running quite fast, you know, like they're they're really pushing their body in a marathon or something like that. That's just not enough for just about anybody to to take in and actually be able to make it through the race without burning some level of glycogen that might slow them down. So I would, I kind of I don't love those calculations specifically for the race fueling uh during race, because I think in that case you would be severely limiting the smaller athlete to say, oh, well, based off this calculation, you only need 35 grams an hour. I s that's still too little. Um, to try to hit like that 60 grams of carbs is just a good baseline for just about anyone. But somebody that maybe is a little bit of larger maybe could tolerate more potentially. So yes, trying to get to a higher amount is always a good idea, but I don't want to limit any particular athlete to only 35 grams. That's just not going to be enough because they're still burning, you know, lovely likely like at least five or six hundred calories an hour and a good, you know, I don't know the rate exactly like how many grams of carbs per hour. It probably does depend a little bit on their um the the the how fast they're running and all those aspects. But it's like 35 grams, even for a small person, is just not enough. So I'm I'm when I'm working with people, it's just 60 grams, like try to hit at least 60 grams an hour no matter who you are or what your size. And um, the more you can get, like the better you are, uh the better off you are, but there's going to be a limitation for most people. So I don't ever, I don't like to give that particular um, I don't like like when it comes to like in um in training nutrition, like during training nutrition, I don't like to use those types of formulas because I do think that yeah, that smaller athlete would be like, oh, I only need 35 grams of hour, and that's too little for most athletes, most endurance athletes, even if they're on the smaller side. Does that make but it would, and then if you can think about it, like, yeah, maybe that would make more sense for maybe somebody who's a little who's a little heavier because they that then now they're starting at 60 grams. But when it comes to in race or in in training fueling, that's um that's probably the only time I wouldn't use like a kilogram base calculation like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Because it's yeah, because it's a little bit different. Yeah, I mean you I understand what you're saying, like you're gonna be burning more carbs and and generally calories if you're heavier, but like the like and it really depends a lot on your pace too. But I mean, some of these elite marathon runners who are running four or something, you know, minute five minute miles are burning a lot of energy. Like a lot of energy, like it could be equivalent to somebody who's like two or three hundred pounds r running. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's just it's hard to like put that calculation based off of weight, like make that calculation based off of weight alone. That's why it's complicated. I know. I wish I had a I I wish I could say like, yes, use this particular calculation for that, and it's not that simple.

unknown 1:12:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

So I I figure it just confused everyone in me. No, or hopefully I explained it well.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

I mean uh I I had been working with I've been working with uh these two ladies uh with a particular race plan, and I I think that they were under fueling. And so I I walked in and I was like, I want to get you guys to 60, I want to get you up to like at least 60 grams of carbs an hour. And then uh one of the ladies is she's an older athlete, smaller, smaller stature. And so I started to really think about it, and I was just like, man, because I looked at that, because I had seen that calculation before, because I had used it for me in order to determine like how many calories, how many carbs I should be getting in. And so I walked it back and I was like, man, for 60 grams of carbs an hour, that's somebody who weighs about 220 pounds. Uh, for that calculation to be valid. And I was like, there's there's no the lady that I'm working with is nowhere near that. So am I really doing her a disservice by trying to get her to consume more calories, really ramping up the calories compared to where she is right now to try and get her to a target that may not even be reasonable for somebody of her size. So I I that was kind of I think the spirit of of the question.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

Yeah, because if you think about it, the calories that someone's burning, it's really it's dependent on weight a little bit, but it's also dependent on how quickly they're running, and there's so many factors. I personally would just try to kind of get most of my athletes around 60 grams. So if they're starting at 30, that's fine. But the goal is to try to get it up to at least 60 grams for most people. Yeah. Unless I don't know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

Where do you draw the line?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Well, the draw the line is kind of when do you start? Like, when is it that you're taking it in and it's just not being digested and utilized in your gut is just this, you know, like you're there's going to be a limitation. You can train your gut as much as you want, but it's there's gonna be some sort of line that people kind of hit and they're just not able to go past, you know, in terms of so it could could be, but you just try to work a way up a little bit, but you don't need to be doing 120 probably an hour, you know, either because that's you know, like some of these elite athletes are doing 120, 150 an hour. And I think people are thinking, oh, they gotta do that too. So it's somewhere, it's probably somewhere in between, but it's not really gonna be dictated necessarily based off of your weight for that particular is there a ceiling in which we can train our gut or probably. I mean, I think that's what they're trying to say is like we can take this in, but are we actually able to not only digest it, but actually like take the cat carbs and utilize it, like actually oxidize the carbs and use them for energy. And um, that's why I think it gets a little bit questionable sometimes when we're hitting these, even some of the elite athletes hitting numbers like 150 an hour, because as our body actually being able to not only digest and absorb it, but actually, you know, utilize it. I think it'll be really interesting because we're gonna, especially with some of these formulations with like Morton gels and some of these other gels that are kind of claimed to be like maybe slower releasing. And so you're having a more trickle effect of like carbs instead of a whole bunch all at once, like kind of trickling in. And over the course of an hour, maybe you are able to, you know, digest and utilize them. And the more carb you can kind of get per hour, the less likely you're gonna run out of glycogen and the less likely you'll hit the wall. So it really becomes even more and more important for athletes who are doing anything longer than probably three or four hours, like an ultra-distance event. Iron Man, you know, ultras, the more carbs you can get per hour, the less likely you're gonna hit that wall because you're just the more you can match your carb needs almost, you know, so you're not depleting yourself. Because it over if you can, if you can kind of think about it, you're like you have a certain number that you're burning every hour, and there's a certain amount coming from fat, and there's a certain amount coming from carb. And the more you can kind of match your needs for carbs per hour, the less likely you're gonna, you know, run out of that energy source and hit the wall or kind of be able to not be able to continue going. So that is the rate limiting factor for many of these, especially really long distance races, is the ability to consume enough carb to be able to keep going. I think that's why one of the reasons we're seeing so many of these um ultra races, being able to see these people running like these paces. I mean, the the paces they're doing for like a hundred-mile race is incredible. Uh, and I think a lot of it is probably because people are just fueling better, so they're able to maintain that pace for longer because they're not sort of hitting that limitation of running out of glygogen and carbs. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:12

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:14

I kind of went on to a totally different topic there.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:16

No, no, that's that this it's a valid question. So I think my next thing would be okay, at what point do you just tell an athlete that look, there's no matter how much you try and train your gut, you are never going to be able to utilize 80 grams of carbs an hour. So that's your particular ceiling. So that's what I meant by is there a ceiling.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:39

Yeah, that's probably true. There's probably like a ceiling.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:43

But then you could be working with another athlete who could easily surpass that ceiling, so they have their ceiling. And so I I think at what point.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

I wonder if it's size dependent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

That's the question that I've got. Is it is it size dependent or age dependent? You know, do older athletes need the same kind of fueling strategy that a younger athlete would.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:06

Even though like the absolute yeah, even though the absolute number in terms of like their pace is not the same, the relative intensity can be equivalent. So does that does that dictate their fueling need, uh, or does it change it in such a way that older athletes just don't need to fuel as much? Younger athletes need to fuel more. At what point do you just say, I I'm not I'm not gonna worry about training my gut because I can't get past this no matter what I do? So this is this is my max that I can consume and and utilize.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:40

I think that's true. I mean, I think people kind of will hit some sort of I mean, if you can try different types of fuels, that might help. But I think, you know, you'll maybe hit a max and that's um that's just gonna be what you're gonna be able to do, and that you know, somebody else might be able to tolerate more. And I don't know if we is it to have to do with how many transporters they have for like, you know, some people may have the ability to have more transporters to transport glucose or fructose and they might be dependent on the individual. So that's yeah, that and an older, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if we even know that. Does that sort of ability change as we age? I I don't think so, but you know, maybe, maybe in the sense that do those transporters decrease as we age. I d I just don't think we know that exactly. Um I think like an older athlete would still benefit from trying to, you know, maximize their ability to get carbs in per hour, or like, you know, but I just I don't know if there's any research on like masters athletes yet on these. Because I really do think that this whole concept of like not only fueling enough, but almost like just barely like getting that 60 grams an hour, which used to be kind of the standard for most people, it was like now it's like this whole high carb revolution. I think there's more um like we're really needing to understand what actually is really happening when somebody takes in 120 grams or 150 grams of carb an hour and um maybe doing a little bit more research in that area of high carb fueling to really understand what's happening how are we changing the gut? How are we utilizing the carbs, like what's happening from a physiological standpoint, you know? I would like that'd be a cool research study to be a part of, I guess. But I don't think we I think we know kind of the but bait, but we we don't know is like wow, some of these people are really able to get so much carb. How what's happening to allow them to be able to do that? And are they actually like utilizing all of that carb? Um, or is it, you know, I don't know. Like it's obviously being used somehow, otherwise I think they're they would start to have gut issues. But is it, you know, is there a cap? Is there a limit? You know, what's the limit to to this? You know, is there like a point at which the body can just it's like to uh you know, maybe that's dependent, but it is fascinating and it and it doesn't have as much to I don't think maybe to do with age or even body size necessarily. Um it just maybe some people have more adaptable guts than others, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:20

I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

So I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:23

I mean, but the the next one, the do does fueling needs change as you get older, kind of goes along with that question. I mean, we can touch on that. I kind of did, but I think in terms of carb I don't think so. Um there are things that change as we get older, potentially. I mean, with maybe the way like the percentages of carbs versus fat we're burning, there's things that are physiologically changing as we get older that might influence how much carb or fat we're needing. Um probably the biggest thing I can think of with age is more so to do with um hydration and just there are some things that change with our ability to kind of you know high hydrate and be able to feel the sense of thirst. And so that's an uh a one I run into a lot with aging athletes. But I don't know if the ch fueling need, I think just we sh we slow down, unfortunately, a little bit. So maybe we don't maybe they just change because we're changing in our pacing and um but not not a not anything substantial. I think an older athlete still needs to fuel and their calculations for energy may cut they may their energy needs may come down slightly, but then that might affect it. But in general, it's not gonna change a substantial any sort of um substantial amount where it's like this is so different that we have to have a totally different way of calculating it. So yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:51

Good.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Uh it's getting hot in here. Like we don't have I have my office door closed, so it's like the air and it's like a hundred degrees today, and the air is not circulating into my office, so I am like sweaty. So I'm starting to get a little uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

Yeah, so let's let's call it. I I think we've we've uh we've exhausted the qu the questions that we that we had. Um so uh thank you guys for those of you who who submitted questions, we really appreciate it. Um I definitely want to do more uh episodes like this. So uh if if this has been interesting to you and you and you have questions and you just did not get a chance to get them in, uh I hope that you will feel comfortable and confident enough to post those questions in the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast group. So it's that closed group that's on Facebook. Uh, if you're not a member, all you have to do is just answer one simple question and agree to the group rules and it lets you in. Uh we created it to build out a community that's tied to the podcast. Um it also uh uh gives you an avenue and us an avenue for additional content that is supplemental to the podcast. Um, but really I really want to see that community grow just so that we kind of learn and support each other and learn from each other. And this is a great place for for you guys to reach out to us. If you do have questions, you don't feel like just posting them in social media, which I totally get. Um, you can always send us a message. So you can send us an email to the podcast. Uh our email address is in the closing credits of of every episode that we've done. So uh if you want, you can send us an email. That mailbox is monitored daily, so it's not going to slip through the track through the track uh cracks. Um, and you can submit your questions that way. And then we'll accumulate questions and then I one of us, either Coach Katie or me, will reach out to you individually and let you know when your question is going to be addressed on the episode so that you can make sure that you that you tune in and uh and listen to that episode. So another reason to join that endurance athlete journey podcast group that's on Facebook. Um let's see. Uh if you have enjoyed this this discussion and it has resonated with you, or you feel like one of the questions that we talked about, uh, you know that there's another person uh who has a similar question that you think it would be helpful to. I hope that you will share the episode with them, leave a comment and a review uh for the podcast. Those are greatly appreciated and help us so much. We do not monetize the podcast. So we do not have ads, we do not have sponsors, you do not have commercials. We just come to you straight through, no interruptions, and you know, we're not trying to sell you anything, training plans and hemp mattresses and supplements. We wanted to be able to keep every single episode pure and unconnected to anybody else. Nobody drives the discussion other than listeners and our own interests. So that's where we come up with the content. So there's no outside influence whatsoever. And so that's the way that we want to keep it. But in order to keep it that way, we really would love to have more reviews and comments to really increase the exposure so that it other people can easily find us when they search, you know, endurance sports or trathlon or running on whatever platform they're they're getting their podcasts from. So these comments and reviews really, really help the algorithm pick up us and recommend us to listeners who are searching for content. So if you haven't left one, I hope that you will consider doing so. Whatever platform that you're listening to, uh whether it's on Spotify or iTunes or Amazon, or even if you're on YouTube and you're watching the episode, you can leave comments and reviews and subscribe, and it definitely helps. So I I appreciate anybody who's left a comment and a review. So thank you very much. If you haven't done so, it only takes a couple seconds, and those are greatly appreciated. So thank you. Uh, we're both active coaches and we're bringing on athletes onto our roster. Uh, it is now July of 2026, and I know that there are people out there that are looking to build 2027 race calendars. So if you're interested in trying something new or you're just tired of pinging ChatGPT and getting crappy advice from AI, and you want to go to a coach and have them set up a plan with you and support you and guide you along, and you're just tired of trying to find workouts to do. Uh, I hope that you will consider reaching out to either Coach Katie or myself. We'll be we'd love to talk to you. Uh, you can reach out to Coach Katie at Katie or at at fuel the number two run.com. Uh you can go to her website, you can reach out to her through there. You can also reach out to me, Coach Justin at tabula rosseracing.com. All of our contact information is out there. We also have tons of other resources that are on our Our websites. We have blogs and documentaries and videos and and all kinds of other stuff that that's out there to help you along in your journey. You can also see our coaching philosophies and and the way that we interact with our athletes. And so do your due diligence, talk to other coaches and find one that works for you. But we hope that we will be on your list of people to talk to. So we look forward to hearing from you if if you're looking for someone. Other than that, I think that that does it for all the standard housekeeping stuff. We talked about the Facebook group. Um there's also a poll that we posted. I want to I want to bring this up because I think it's I'm not getting a whole lot of responses from it, but there's a poll that is in the closed Facebook group, and it's about the content that we pushed out for like our individual race builds. So Katie just uh completed her road to grandma's, did multiple episodes talking about her build and her process of training for that race. I did a build for Iron Man Florida 70.3. Um, if you enjoy that kind of content, other than just kind of instruction and you're looking for tips and and strategies and all that kind of stuff, but you just like hearing about what it is that we're doing. And you know, we're we're not just coaches, we're athletes as well. And so we train just like everybody else does. So if you're interested in following us, following along with us on our journeys as well as athletes, uh, let us know. Go out to the to the Facebook group. It's pinned up at the very top, and let us know if you enjoy that content. If so, we'll keep coming out with those kinds of episodes. Um, it's just additional content, and we want to make sure that we're bringing you episodes that matter to you, stuff that you enjoy that you that you can learn from, listen from, listen to, get motivated by, whatever, whatever the reason may be. But let us know if you like it. Um those that would be uh appreciated. So thank you so much for for tuning in today. This has been episode 111 of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast, where we did a couple QA's from from our listeners. Uh so again, thank you guys so much for the support you continue to share the podcast. And uh I've been your host, Coach Justin, along with Coach Katie, and we'll talk to you guys again next time. Thank you. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye-bye. That wraps up today's episode of the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Endurance sports have a way of teaching us patience, humility, and resilience. Lessons that carry far beyond the workout. Progress in endurance sports doesn't come from shortcuts, it comes from consistency, discipline, and doing the work when it's not glamorous. Wherever you are on your endurance journey, keep trusting the process and honoring the work you put in each day. If today's episode resonated, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone to help on their endurance journey. Don't forget to join the conversation on our social sites to help build and foster a community where we all learn and support one another. We'll be back with more stories and insights from Coach Justin and Katie. Until then, visit the podcast website at the endurance athlete journey.buzzsprout.com for more episodes from the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast. Have questions or comments about the podcast? Feel free to send us an email at the endurance athlete journey at gmail.com. For all things coaching, visit Coach Katie at FuelThenumber Two Run.com and Coach Justin at Taboularassa Racing.com. Again, thank you for listening to the Endurance Athlete Journey Podcast and remember to find joy in the journey.